EV Market progress and barriers

Discussion in 'Clarity' started by jdonalds, Jul 21, 2019.

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  1. jdonalds

    jdonalds Well-Known Member

    A lot of the slow growth of the EV market has to do with uninformed opinions.

    Things that impede growth of the segment include:
    - thinking charging takes longer than it does
    - assuming there is a lack of charge stations - sometimes but not always true.
    - assuming EV Range is shorter than it is today
    - thinking EV cars are too expensive - for the most part this is true
    - "knowing" batteries will deteriorate in a couple of years. This comes from assuming EV batteries will behave like cell phone batteries - nearly no truth to this
    - "old school" effects. I know ICE and I'm sticking with it.
    - I'm sure there are more reasons...

    One of the things I've been thinking about is those that consider their ICE to be extremely fast in accelerating, and thinking EVs are slow. Once this crowd begins to be beaten by some of the EVs on the market they will begin to see the light. They will make the switch based completely on "my car is faster than your car," mentality. ICE cars have been pushed to their limit for over 100 years, and EV is in its infancy. Even today many EVs are faster than track ready ICE cars.

    I listen daily to the podcast EV News Daily with Martin Lee. That plus Fully Charged tells me electric cars are quite inevitable and are coming in many forms starting about 2020. Just about every manufacturer (where's Toyota?) are putting some form of electrification into some percentage of their fleet; many are pure EV. Behind the scenes large manufacturers are quietly selling off manufacturing rights for ICE related components and building new lines ready for electric cars, trucks, and SUVs. Ford and VW just signed an agreement to share the VW line which will help cut costs for both companies. I don't know where the inflection point will hit but governments and manufacturers are going down paths that can't be ignored.
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  3. insightman

    insightman Well-Known Member Subscriber

    Low-priced, taxpayer-subsidized gasoline has a lot to do with the nation's preference for SUVs, crossovers, and pickup trucks. If gasoline was more realistically priced (eg. expensive), buyers would flock to EVs and PHEVs. However, producing enough batteries for that flock of buyers would pose a big problem.
  4. MajorAward

    MajorAward Active Member

    We need better batteries and more renewable energy.

    First, I know this is going to sound U.S. centric, but that's where I live, so please forgive me just for a moment. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, and I'm really trying not to make a political statement here, except to the extent that I'm talking about successful politicians from every party. And lets face it, politicians from at least state level up are mostly funded by special interest groups, be they large or small, from monetary donations, be they over the table or under. All the posturing and fighting we see in the news is just entertainment for the masses.

    Let's not forgive ourselves either, because we in some way make up those special interest groups that fund and elect the politicians. I'm certainly guilty. I've worked for small start-ups looking to get a foot in the door, but also Multinational corporations, with PACs that was strongly suggested I support. So in a sense, I guess I'm pointing a finger at everyone, including myself, and saying its time to change. We know money has been spent bombing and rebuilding. Would that money have been better spent on renewable energy projects, or research for a better battery? I think so, but behind the scenes, we cant forget that many people are employed by companies in the bombing and rebuilding business, so to speak. So the better question may be how do we make it more profitable for the bombing and rebuilding companies to shift their focus elsewhere, perhaps even renewable energy, or the ultimate battery. To simplify, we need to turn more swords into plowshares, and for that to happen, there must be less demand for swords, and more demand for plowshares.

    Humankind is capable of great things. We've stepped on the moon, and built a spacecraft that has now gone inter-freaking-stellar- all before 1980. We can be better, we just have to stop fighting each other and get to it.
    MPower likes this.
  5. Sandroad

    Sandroad Well-Known Member

    I would add one more thing to the sales impedance list for the U.S. Many EVs have been sedans and that type of vehicle is not selling well.
    insightman likes this.
  6. 4sallypat

    4sallypat Active Member

    @Sandroad and @insightman are both correct.

    Gasoline prices have a big impact on purchases of EV/PHEV/Alternative fuel vehicles - especially here in California where we have the highest prices for fuel in the nation and buy the most numbers of EV/PHEV/Alt fuel cars.

    Sedans in general are going by the wayside for popularity due to the availability of many different crossovers, SUVs and new generation trucks.
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  8. ab13

    ab13 Active Member

    I think there should be registration fees based on vehicle emissions, and required smog check of older vehicles. So if you want a vehicle that has high emissions, such as a performance vehicle or large engine vehicle, then you have to pay the fees for it. Also, mandatory smog check for older vehicles, to ensure they are not emitting excess due to lack of maintenance or purposely modify to "emit."

    Regarding EV charging, right now having multiple types of connectors is not ideal, many people are not tech savvy about those things.
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2019
  9. Sandroad

    Sandroad Well-Known Member

    Although there are different charge rates, the connector is remarkably standardized. Tesla has a different connector, but others all use the J1772.
  10. fotomoto

    fotomoto Active Member

    Batteries are expensive.
  11. Agzand

    Agzand Active Member

    Batteries are expensive, heavy and environmentally unfriendly. For EVs to replace ICE cars as the bulk of the market, a new battery type needs to be developed. Something cheaper, lighter and with less exotic chemistry.
    4sallypat likes this.
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  13. insightman

    insightman Well-Known Member Subscriber

    The Nissan Leaf has a J1772 connector for Level 1 and Level 2 charging, but it still uses a CHAdeMO connector for fast DC charging rather than the J1772-based SAE Combined Charging Standard (CCS) Combo connector.
  14. RobinBrain

    RobinBrain Member

    The biggest barrier where I live is lack of charging options, the majority of people who own cars here park on the street or garages with no charging available. I myself held off buying one until I found out there is a lot near me where I can occasionally charge. In hindsight a regular hybrid would probably have been more convenient
  15. 2002

    2002 Well-Known Member

    Is it a level 2 charger at the lot where you charge? How long does it take to charge there?
  16. RobinBrain

    RobinBrain Member

    It's a level 2 charger takes about 2:40 to fully charge
    2002 likes this.
  17. Sandroad

    Sandroad Well-Known Member

    Bummer. Failure to standardize will seriously affect adoption of EV.
  18. Dan Albrich

    Dan Albrich Well-Known Member

    There's a lot of bias against EVs. And directly related, it seems sales staff don't want to be bothered to learn about EV options the dealer provides. It's not just that they are ignorant, they are willfully ignorant.

    EVs from the dealer may lack options provided on similar model cars from the same dealer. For example, I would of gladly paid for a sun roof if it was an option on the Clarity. There's other more important misses too-- i.e. harder to find an EV with all wheel drive or 4 wheel drive. Less options for a hatchback. Certain segments almost without representation currently- i.e. trucks. No third row SUV for EV or Plugin EV to my knowledge.
  19. 2002

    2002 Well-Known Member

    All of those are almost certainly because of struggles with weight, not poor marketing. As an example both Volt and Prius Prime started off with only four seats because of weight, even though I'm sure they knew that this would cost them a certain number of sales. They both later figured out a way to add the middle seat, which was a must have for a lot of people with small children.

    Also Prius just added an AWD option for 2020 model year, although it's really just a small electric motor on the rear axle that will power the rear wheels at low speeds. However Prime doesn't get AWD, again likely due to razor thin margins on weight.
    4sallypat likes this.
  20. insightman

    insightman Well-Known Member Subscriber

    There will soon be the 4-wheel drive Rivian truck and SUV, but I expect they will be very expensive due to the cost of the batteries to power such a heavy BEV a significant distance. I've speculated that the Honda Pilot Plug-In Hybrid prototype seen testing more than a year ago never came to market because of the cost vs. EV range dilemma.
    4sallypat likes this.
  21. Mark W

    Mark W Active Member

    Many good points raised here. Don't forget though, it is a two way street. Automakers need to have incentives to sell the cars. Right now, with the exception of Tesla, they don't have any incentive to sell EVs. They make less money on every EV they sell. Also, they will make less money servicing them as well. They are in the business of making money, and they make more money selling gas cars. Hyundai/Kia is a perfect example. Many people love the Kona EV and E-Niro, but Hyundai/Kia is limiting production. Most automakers are just making enough EVs and PHEVs to get the ZEV credits and not have to pay penalties. The cost of batteries needs to come down so that EVs are much closer in price to gas.

    Many people look at Tesla and say, "see the demand for EVs is really high". I think the demand for cool, fast, sexy cars is high, not just EV versions of the same cars automakers are already making.
    Agzand and 4sallypat like this.
  22. Well, OK. But it’s not like the gasoline/diesel infrastructure is so environmentally “friendly”.

    Think Exxon Valdez for one!
  23. Agzand

    Agzand Active Member

    Yes, but EVs are not eliminating the oil/gas infrastructure, they are reducing demand and shifting to production, rather than operating. Depending who you believe and where you live, it takes between 40k-100k miles for an EV to be more environmentally friendly than a gas car. So with current technology and energy mix, the benefits are much smaller than an 130 MPGe indicates.

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