Electric Car Market Overview (chart)

Discussion in 'General' started by Denis EVfanboy, Feb 27, 2019.

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What do you think?

  1. Nice work

    3 vote(s)
  2. Nothing Special

    0 vote(s)
  3. Useless

    0 vote(s)
  4. Needs correction

    0 vote(s)
  1. Denis EVfanboy

    Denis EVfanboy New Member

    Hi, EV community!

    We are happy to present you one of the most detailed Electric Car Market Overviews in the World.
    It combines accuracy, comprehensiveness and simplicity. Our intention was to create a useful tool for electric car comparison. It is available to anyone free of charge. https://evcompare.io/market/

    The EV Market Overview looks like this:

    How to use it?
    1. Choose the cars you want to compare or analyze the entire market. You have a whole set of filters at your disposal. Filter by body style, price, make, status, drive type and DC charging capability.
    2. Select the specs to be shown on each axis. The following options are available: Range, Battery pack capacity, Acceleration, Engine Power, Engine Torque and Efficiency.
    3. Watch how do different electric models compare on your custom chart and discover interesting interrelations and trends.
    4. Hover on a car to see more info. Click on it to go to the model page, which contains a detailed description, high-quality photos, video reviews, safety ratings and Disqus widget to share your impression with other EV Compare users.

    Interesting observations
    1. Range and battery pack capacity are closely related (what a surprise). But look how far the Tesla Roadster concept has gone!

    2. There is only a slight correlation between range and MSRP. So the higher price does not necessarily mean greater range. What’s more, there is a noticeable gap in the middle, which signifies a lack of mid-range EVs.

    3. Another important thing to mention is the inverse relationship between battery pack size and efficiency. It is more visible among high-end EVs.

    4.Tesla's superiority is clear. No matter what specs you choose, Tesla models are always on the top forcing other automakers to catch up.

    All in all, playing with the chart gives food for thought. Have you noticed anything remarkable? Share it with the EV community :)

    Your feedback (questions, comments or suggestions) will be appreciated.
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2019
    bwilson4web likes this.
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  3. Ray B

    Ray B Active Member

    Great work - Congrats!

    My one complaint is that the most popular car on these forums appears to be missing. The Honda Clarity PHEV. The Clarity EV is there in the chart, but in reality it is only available by lease in a couple of west coast states, whereas the PHEV is available for purchase or lease nationwide and in Canada.
  4. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber

    Just a suggestion:

    The usable capacity is 18.6 kWh as measured by owners. It is too common that the maximum battery capacity is listed, not the usable capacity. Also, the kWh/100 miles from www.fueleconomy.gov is a rounding error off. I've looked at the EPA data and noticed they have similar problems ... so don't set your hair on fire. <grins>

    It isn't clear but I think it makes sense to have a total range, not just EV range, for plug-in cars. This becomes important for those who want one car with city EV range as well as cross country, long legs of gas.

    The 'hover pop-up' is nice but it would also help to have a 'sticky' pop-up two or more cars could be looked at on the screen.

    Bob Wilson
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2019
  5. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    I applaud your efforts, but I think it needs work.

    Under "Price", I clicked on the "more than $100,000" radio button. At the top, it displayed "Shown 4 models out of 94", but only three symbols appeared on the graph. I noted that under "Tesla" it said "3" (models) of which 2 show the symbol for "available for pre-order" and one shows the symbol for "currently produced".

    I wasn't aware that Tesla has any model in production with an MSRP of $100,000 or more, but after looking around a bit I see instructions to hover over any item for more details.

    I'd like to make what I hope is a useful suggestion: Add a caption to the bottom of the graph: "Hover mouse over any symbol for more info", or something similar.

    Okay, so the "in production model" is the Model X100P. But that's not a "model", it's the most expensive trim level available for the Model X.

    The second item is the "Tesla Roadster concept". Okay, fair enough. You can get a reservation, altho I'm not sure about an actual "pre-order", but that would be quibbling.

    However, the third item is the "Faraday Future FF91 concept". Ummm... hopefully it's not necessary to point out that this most definitely is not a Tesla car? I also very seriously question that the FF91 can be properly described as "available for pre-order", since it's virtually certain that it never will be produced.

    So, Denis EVfanboy, I applaud your efforts, and I hope you (and your team, assuming you have one?) will continue to work on the site to make it more usable and to display facts and figures accurately.

    P.S. -- I did not vote in your poll, since there is no option for "I can see you've put a lot of work into this, and I'd like to encourage you to develop this site more fully".
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2019
    bwilson4web likes this.
  6. Denis EVfanboy

    Denis EVfanboy New Member

    Glad you like it!
    We're getting loads of requests to add PHEV's as they are more widespread.
    We like hybrids, but at the same time we believe they are just a transitional step to the full electrification :)

    The PHEV section of our website has been in the pipeline for a long time. We have been postponing it, because it requires an enormous amount of time to collect and organize accurate information on all the hybrid models (discontinued, current and coming). Right now we have around 100 BEV models on EV Compare. The model range of hybrids is many times larger. The current priority for us is to make our website economically viable. After it becomes self-sufficient, I will be able to start working on the hybrid section.
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  8. Denis EVfanboy

    Denis EVfanboy New Member

    Thanks for your remarks!

    1. I see your point, but many automakers don't announce the usable battery capacity. Do I understand correctly that you recommend to rely on the fueleconomy data?

    2. In fact, BMW REX are the only hybrids on our website. We do show total range on their model page, i.e.

    3. Great idea with the 'sticky' pop-ups! We'll find the ways to implement it and at the same time not to clog the chart.
  9. Denis EVfanboy

    Denis EVfanboy New Member

    Thanks for such a detailed feedback!

    1. We found the issue and fixed the bugs, now it works fine. (Tesla Model S Performance (formerly P100D) was missing)
    2. Good idea, we'll add the caption. Right now we have a short description below the chart, but I guess it may be invisible for mobile and tablet users.
    3. We have a designated page for each version of the Tesla Model S/X/3 as they have different specs. That's why they appear on the chart.
    4. Changed the status of the Faraday Future FF91 to "Announced". They have a pre-order form on their website, but we share your views on their future.
    5. Thanks for your support! We are working hard to make EV Compare more useful and accurate. Come back in a month and you'll see some positive developments:)
  10. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber

    We run into it when discussing whether the battery has lost enough capacity to be a warranty replacement. The reduced operational 'capacity' leads to a lot angst. But this is not a tool problem. Perhaps a semantic solution like "lab", "bench", or other modifier that indicates it includes "inaccessible" capacity. Use the infamous "(*)" I'm just spit wadding ideas.

    I've become fond of using this source for my engineering studies:

    My favorite trick is to use the roll-down coefficients to make a parameter curve and then add benchmarks to tweak the curve. This gives me a curve I can use for detailed range and performance:
    • ~65 mph ->72 mi EPA EV range, ~1 hr
    • ~40-45 mph -> 1.5x EPA EV range, ~2.5-3.0 hr
    • ~30 mph -> 2x EPA range, ~5 hr
    I'm not suggesting a change in scope as much as brain food.

    Perhaps some sort of 'hover+click' to hold or release.

    Bob Wilson
    Denis EVfanboy likes this.
  11. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    Okay, and I certainly don't object; lots of websites give specs for different versions of the Tesla car models, as if the different versions are different models altho they aren't. Perhaps they do that for some non-Tesla models, too, altho I haven't noticed that happening. (I'm a Tesla fan, so I tend to focus more on Tesla-related web content.)

    But I think it's confusing to use the descriptor "model" when you're referring to different versions of the same model. How about changing the descriptor "model" to "model/version" where that is applicable?

    Just a suggestion, of course.

    And thanks again for all the work you and your team are putting in on this!
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  13. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    It's a thorny problem, all right. Some EV makers cite the full battery capacity in the specs or description; other EV makers cite the usable capacity. There's no standard or consistency.

    Furthermore, if you do try to find third-party ratings for a particular EV's full vs. usable capacity, you quickly find that the experts disagree. So I don't think there is any reliable source for such data. (Bob Wilson (bwilson4web) may disagree. He's an engineer and I'm not, so I'll defer to him on this subject.)

    The only solution I can think of, one that should work for all EVs, is to always add a "(usable)" or "(full)" descriptor following any citation of battery pack capacity. That is, it will work if you can figure out if the EV maker is reporting full capacity or usable capacity. That's not always easy to tell!

    bwilson4web likes this.
  14. Denis EVfanboy

    Denis EVfanboy New Member

    We do our best to avoid model-version confusion. Actually, Market Overview is the only page where models and versions are not separated due to visualisation (complex code). On the main page we use "Compare all versions" button, while on the model page we use "Compare all trims". Which one is better, in your opinion?
  15. Denis EVfanboy

    Denis EVfanboy New Member

    As of today we use full battery pack capacity if not otherwise specified by the automaker.
    Data accuracy is the №1 priority for us and there is always room for improvement.

    Thanks for your kind words of support! We are determined to build a useful and reliable EV website.
    bwilson4web likes this.
  16. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    If it was me I'd use "versions" in both places, for the sake of consistency. But it's your website, not mine!
    Denis EVfanboy likes this.
  17. Fabrice

    Fabrice New Member

    Hi, thank you for sharing this wonderful site EVcompare.io I didn't know it (but now it is done). Juste to add some comment regarding the last graph.

    Battery capacity=f(efficiency) with decreasing tendency
    - It is quite normal to decrease efficiency using big battery capacity because of the tremendous weight of battery pack. The energetic density of a battery is poor in regard to classic fuel (Gasoline or Diesel), therefore the sensitivity of Efficiency with Battery capacity (weight) is big.
  18. Denis EVfanboy

    Denis EVfanboy New Member

    Exactly. I've done some more research on that and came to the same conclusion. Here is the link to the EV Compare blog post in case you're interested.
  19. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    Hmmm, well, it's certainly true that the amount of energy which can be carried in an EV's battery pack is much more limited (using today's battery tech) than what can be carried in a typical gasmobile's gas tank.

    But I'd say that the sensitivity to energy efficiency is a function of the total weight of the car. Not just the weight of the battery pack.

    As battery tech has advanced and energy density has increased, the weight of the battery pack has come down in relation to the capacity -- the kWh carried. But EV makers have, in general, wisely chosen to increase the capacity of EV battery packs, rather than decrease the weight.

  20. Denis EVfanboy

    Denis EVfanboy New Member

    You are right, the correlation is Battery pack capacityCurb weightEfficiency⬇. The battery pack still has a large impact on the total weight of the car (up to 30%) along with the body weight. In future the first correlation will weaken. As far as I am concerned, most of the automakers today focus primarily on the volume (energy density) of the battery pack and its safety. I think only Tesla has reached the second stage (working on weight reduction) as of today.
  21. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    I think most if not all production EV makers make some attempt to reduce weight, altho some try harder than others. The BMW i3 even used a mostly carbon-fiber body to reduce weight; Tesla used aluminum in the Model S and Model X for the same purpose.

    Sandy Munro has praised Tesla to high heaven for integrating multiple functions into the parts and assemblies in the Model 3, which reduces the number of parts and thus reduces cost. I'm sure that helps a lot with reducing weight, too.

  22. Denis EVfanboy

    Denis EVfanboy New Member

    Well, I actually meant ...(working on battery weight reduction)...
    It seems that now it's easier and cheaper for them to reduce body weight than battery weight. They will certainly switch to light batteries as soon as the technology becomes economically reasonable.
  23. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    Ah! Sorry I misunderstood your comment. Mea culpa, I should have read that more carefully.

    Yes, I think you're right there. I'd love to learn more about the new Tesla Standard Range Model 3 battery pack, and those innovations in pack architecture which Elon bragged about. I think he was talking mostly about cost reduction and perhaps some simplification, but my guess is the changes resulted in some reduction in weight, too.

    Denis EVfanboy likes this.

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