Clarity PHEV Battery Type

Discussion in 'Clarity' started by Ray B, Sep 23, 2018.

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  1. Ray B

    Ray B Active Member

    Anyone know what kind of lithium battery is used in the PHEV version of the Clarity? It is hard find/read info on the Blue Energy pages. I found various specs (voltage, number of cells, modules, weight, etc) but nothing that spells out what battery chemistry is used.
     
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  3. An Apple user?

    Fwiw, the technology of the Clarity's is Lithium-Ion.

    From:
    https://automobiles.honda.com/clarity-plug-in-hybrid/specs-features-trim-comparison

    Lithium-Ion Battery
    Capacity 17 kWh

    Btw, that link was the first result from:
    http://www.google.com/search?q=clarity+phev+battery+type


    Also, as I said, the technology of the Clarity's is Lithium-Ion.
    As for longevity of the battery, energy density, the chance that the battery will blow up and kill everyone in the car, has only a little to do with battery's technology.

    There are many different "Lithium-Ion" batteries. Quality, purity, and specific chemistry all come into play.
    Like gasoline, there are many different types and each has it's own unique characteristics. For example, a summer So Calf gasoline mixture would suck, if it would even work, for use in the Grand Forks, North Dakota in February. And, cheap no-name regular-grade gasoline would cause many 80's and 90's sports cars to ping very badly.

    Wine is similar. A bottle of wine can go for well over $20,000! However, with proper id :), I'll sell people a bottle for wine for only $100. What a steal!
    Wine for sale - only $100 per bottle! Proper id required!
    [​IMG]

    Hey, all "wine" is the same right? Same for all "Lithium-Ion" batteries. ;)


    Hence, imho, why it's important to go with a company that sells it's vehicles based on reliability.
    Imho, other manufactures offer better vehicles for around the same price as a Honda or a Toyota. Imho, GM and Mercedes Benz CLR vehicles come to mind. However, both GM cars, and the MB CLR-class have well deserved reputations for not lasting more than ~~80K/7 years.
    Imho, that's because both of those trade-off long-term reliability for more/better features/etc at the same price as Honda or Toyota.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2018
  4. KentuckyKen

    KentuckyKen Well-Known Member

    My Clarity’s battery chemistry is pure magic. I charge it at night for $0.09287/ per kW, get a calculated 135+ MPGe and 2.2 to 2.3 cents/miles.

    Then the magical financial fairies put money in my wallet every day and will bring me 7,500 tidings of joy from my uncle in the swamp. They would bring me more but the realm of coal remains an unenchanted land. And they promise to slay the evil Kentucky Utilities money munching dragon when my Solar System is installed before the evil King CEO proclaims the end of the age of enlightened net-metering.
    Harry Potter ain’t got nothing on this car!
     
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  5. Ray B

    Ray B Active Member

    Thanks...?

    I should have been clearer in my question. Does anyone know if the battery in the Clarity PHEV is...
    • Lithium Manganese Oxide (LMO)
    • Lithium Iron Phosphate (LFP)
    • Lithium Nickel Cobalt Aluminum Oxide (NCA)
    • Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide (NMC 111 / NMC 532 / NMC 622 / NMC 811)
    My guess would be one of the NMC varieties, but I just wanted to check if anyone knew for sure.
     
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  6. Yes, I know that there are many different types of "Lithium-Ion" batteries.

    But, again, I have to ask, why do you care?

    No matter what the exact chemistry is, that does not matter in the important areas.
    The purity, the exact mixture, and so many other aspects go into the real-life concerns.
    Big deal if the battery is made from unicorn horns. A simple bad choice for even the anode could spell death for the people using that item.

    So, no matter what the chemistry is, the end-user doesn't have any clue at all how safe, how reliable, how good, etc the battery really is. Sorry, that's how things are.

    Just look at the many generations of the Tesla battery, or even it's containing cell. The latest containing cell, and it's features, are done because of what Tesla has learned, and their desire to not have their cars burst into flames.


    More battery stuff:
    https://www.fool.com/investing/2018/06/07/how-general-motors-and-honda-will-fight-teslas-bat.aspx
    Bolt uses what GM calls its "first-generation" battery system, developed by GM with Korean supplier LG Chem. LG Chem produces the battery cells and packs for the Bolt, using a unique battery chemistry owned by GM.

    https://www.idtechex.com/research/reports/advanced-li-ion-and-beyond-li-ion-batteries-2018-2028-000566.asp
    The truth is that battery innovation takes place gradually and long validation cycles are needed before a new material can find its way into the mainstream market. Car companies are extremely cautious when adopting new battery technologies, as they do not want to set the whole industry on a collision course because of battery-related incidents. As an example, the adoption of high-nickel-content cathode materials like NMC622 and NMC811 has long been delayed, however according to recent announcements by LGChem and rumours about the new Nissan LEAF, NMC811 may enter the market as soon as 2018. On the other hand, the Chinese government has issued policy regulations that encourage battery companies in the country to switch from LFP cathodes to others that are more energy-dense, such as NMC and NCA, the one currently found in Tesla's electric cars.
    The advanced Li-ion industry is analysed in terms of cathode, anode, and electrolyte innovation, not to mention other key components like electrode binders, current collectors, additives, and conductive agents. A thorough analysis of graphite, both natural and synthetic, as well as silicon-based anodes, lithium titanate, lithium metal; LCO, NMC, LFP, NCA, and sulphur presents advantages and disadvantages of each material from both a technological and a strategic standpoint.



    Fwiw, with a quick search, I didn't find anything on sae.org.

    If someone does know the chemistry used, it'd be interesting.
    However, other than NiMH (and it's pseudo "memory effect problem") and Lithium-Ion, *I* see the difference within a technology as mostly a moot point, for the reasons I stated above.

    So, again, imho, for a hybrid or a plug-in, *I* say go with a company that has proven to be focused on reliability.
    Just my two cents. :)
     
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  8. Ray B

    Ray B Active Member

    Not sure why the confrontation. I am interested - I have no direct experience with lithium ion battery technology. However, I have 30 years of inorganic materials research under my belt. I also work on advanced materials that are used in the lithium battery industry. I have plenty of access to scientific research papers, patents and I have my share of Google user experience. I just can't find this nugget of info and was thinking it would be worth checking if someone here knows.

    I'm not sure why my curiosity matters so much. Yes I am a just a user. I am also interested as a geek and a materials scientist. There are significant differences in the different battery types.

    No offence intended.
     
  9. ryd994

    ryd994 Active Member

    Probably you have to ask Honda directly, not even dealer.

    PS: I have a degree in material engineering too. Just to say Hi.
    I a software engineer now.
     
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  10. AnthonyW

    AnthonyW Well-Known Member

    Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide (NMC) I will have to check back and find the original source later as it has been a while.
     
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  11. Gary1

    Gary1 New Member

    I think it's a safe bet they are using batteries from http://www.blue-energy.co.jp/en/products/index.html since that is what is used in all other Hondas. I took a quick look but did not see any information on the actual chemistry used by Blue Energy Japan.
     
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  13. insightman

    insightman Well-Known Member Subscriber

    I believe Honda owns 49% of Blue Energy, with Yuasa owning 51%. So its no surprise that the Clarity batteries come from Blue Energy. It's unfortunate that Blue Energy has been too busy to update their website for the past few years.

    With its multi-year involvement in Blue Energy, it will be interesting to see why Honda sought battery technology through a new association with GM. They were already working on fuel cells together.
     
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  14. Ray B

    Ray B Active Member

    Thanks so much AnthonyW, Gary1, and insightman.

    It is maddening how difficult it is to find any details on the battery. Seems like cathode chemistry info on most other BEV and PHEV batteries are well documented and available, but anything on the Clarity, and especially the Clarity PHEV, is non-existent from my searches so far. One could suppose that the battery model in the PHEV is either an EHW5 or EH19 from Blue Energy (not confirmed anywhere that I have found so far), but they don't have any information spelled out. The page I held out hope for was this one: http://www.gs-yuasa.com/jp/deepstory/vol5.html but sadly it skirts around the specifics, although they do mention hard carbon as the anode (use the translate function to read a mediocre translation -lol).

    Anyway, there are many good and recent documents on the rapidly changing Li ion battery market. Here is one of the better ones that includes some informative science in the second and third sections: http://www.fullertreacymoney.com/system/data/files/PDFs/2018/February/22nd/BMO_Lithium_Ion_Battery_EV_Mkt_(20_Feb_2018).pdf
    It even mentions the Clarity PHEV in a table of available PHEV's. Interesting read. I can post some of the other Li-ion tech links I have if anyone is interested, but they are easily found.
     
  15. ryd994

    ryd994 Active Member

    There's a footnote:
    ハードカーボン=難黒鉛化性炭素
    Hard carbon = Difficultly(maybe slowly?) graphitized carbon.

    I can read some Japanese, but the whole article would be too much for me.
     
  16. ryd994

    ryd994 Active Member

    Or it could be
    Non-graphitizable carbon.

    Materials scientist, it's your turn.
     
  17. Cash Traylor

    Cash Traylor Active Member

    This information on the suspected battery chemistry in the Clarity is NTK (nice to know), and probably subject to change without notice. :cool: I do not play a materials scientists (or engineer) on TV, but did stay at a Holiday Inn this year, and have about 20 years of battery applications experience (UN38.3, IEC 62133, UL production). The funny thing for me on this thread is that when I was researching the idea of buying a PHEV, one of the things I could never get Google, or Youtube, to produce was information (specs or a nice teardown video) of the Clarity (yes, I know it is new...) I felt a lot better about the Chevy volt or even the Tesla (tech, not company) technology because of things like this:

    If you Google Honda Clarity, all you get is a plethora of Honda marketing vids and various car review "insider reports" that are technically (pun intended) useless for folks like those on this forum and Endless Sphere (tends to be highly technical at times).

    Thank you to those that contributed the actual information here! (Anthony, Insight....and Kentucky - have to say you keep me rolling on the floor, thanks man really enjoyed that one!!!)

    NMC vs NCA (lots of pros and cons, variations in safety and energy density, stability of charge, cycle life, cost per kW/Kg, all factors any OEM has to weigh). In my industry we really only cared about one factor and that was failure mode, all other performance measures were secondary (A123).

    However, I am still waiting on my Flux Capacitor Hybrid Mr. Fusion powered car with hover upgrades, but the Clarity will do nicely until those parts get here from Alibaba.... :);):mad::confused::eek::rolleyes:o_O The Cadex battery university does make for interesting reading though....

    Cheers,
    Cash
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2018
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