Budget Battery Capacity Readout

Discussion in 'Clarity' started by MrFixit, Feb 27, 2021.

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  1. David Towle

    David Towle Well-Known Member

    If it was for a Kia or Hyundai I would categorize it as normal.
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  3. MrFixit

    MrFixit Well-Known Member

    I have not seen anything indicating that the HV capacity threshold for the warranty depends on where you live.
    It is 2/3 of the original capacity (2/3 * 55 aH = 36.6 aH).

    The difference in the 'California Emissions' states (California, Connecticut, Delaware, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New York, Oregon
    Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Vermont, and Washington) is that the the warranty applies for 10 years / 150K miles instead of 8 years / 100K miles.

    Note that other components also benefit from the extended warranty in these states. For instance, the battery charger, motor controllers, etc are extended to
    15 years / 150K miles as opposed to the default 8 years / 100K miles.

    This has been posted before, but here is the relevant document that lists the extended coverage duration if you are lucky enough to live in one of these 13 states:

    Attached Files:

  4. BerettaDaddy

    BerettaDaddy New Member

    Would need to lose another 10% yes, but that's why I went with actual numbers and not percentages.
    55Ah (100%) when new
    42Ah (76.3%) at 51k miles
    36.6Ah (66.5%) needed for warranty

  5. David Towle

    David Towle Well-Known Member

    I got the info from Forbes, I didn't notice then that the change to 70% is for the future not now, sorry.
    "For the 2026 model year, California and the ZEV states require a battery to maintain no less than a 70-percent state of charge after 10 years, rising to 75 percent in 2031. As of yet, this is theoretical. There is no official test or standard for how the state of charge will be determined."
  6. Is the quoted text from Forbes? Perhaps it was generated by an Actual Idiot (AI). They obviously don’t know the difference between State of Charge and Capacity and they appear to have no understanding of SOC.

    Things like this get published, in this case from a seemingly reputable source, and readers take it as gospel. Maybe they should stick to financial matters?
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  8. Steven B

    Steven B Active Member

    I've not been following this thread but am catching up. So, putting on my pessimist hat, this mystery capacity reset could be a way for Honda to 'run out the clock' if it may take months for the car to return to reporting actual capacity?

    Owner measures 36.5 Ah at year 7.9, takes the vehicle to the dealer who does some magic and prints a test report showing 55 Ah. Before vehicle returns to reporting actual condition, warranty expires.
  9. MrFixit

    MrFixit Well-Known Member

    Yes, this is certainly a possibility. I think the dealers are completely unaware of any of this. It would not be unusual for a dealer to just start resetting things within their diagnostic system when faced with a potential warranty issue. Perhaps with no ill-intent, but if it causes this capacity reset, it does indeed take months for the reading to recover. We have numerous examples of this (at least 10-20 examples). If the factory became involved with a warranty 'claim', I don't know whether they have the means to make this reading recover faster, but if a dealer somehow causes a reset it might not be possible to know the real capacity.

    There is a chance that the factory continually monitors the battery through telematics, but that is way beyond the knowledge base of any dealer. If I were a Honda Engineer, I would want to collect this basic information from an experimental vehicle like the Clarity and I think it is quite possible.

    My personal opinion is that it is wise to routinely track the capacity yourself. That way you will be aware of any reset events, and you will have a good feel for the actual capacity. Honda will probably not put any weight on an owner's capacity readings (using an unsanctioned technique), but you would at least be armed with something and know how much of a fight you might want to undertake.
  10. David Towle

    David Towle Well-Known Member

    Yes its quoted. Yes they don't understand SOC etc. but its obvious to any of us what they meant. And others quote the same 70% for 2026.

  11. Not everyone is as brilliant as the members of this forum. When the less fortunate are exposed to misinformation, they absorb it like a sponge and repeat it amongst themselves. A plethora of articles spewing nonsense does not make any of it correct.

    That said, the KBB article that you linked, does not mention SOC at all. It states 70% as the amount of range that must be retained. This could be understood as meaning capacity, however, the great minds that frequent this forum know that a variety of factors influence the range that is achieved from a full charge.

    Imagine someone who drives a Clarity at slow speeds on flat roads who typically gets 60 miles from a full charge. For one reason or another this person begins driving 80mph on a daily basis and range plummets to 36 miles. Off they go to the Honda dealer with the KBB article in hand to demand a new battery because their range is now less than 70% of what it was previously.

    It could happen if the text of the legislation states range rather than capacity. I haven’t read it, but I am familiar with the feeble minds of the folks who write these things, so it is possible.

    The KBB article also states that battery replacement typically occurs when capacity falls below 70-75%. That is an accurate statement. IMG_3036.jpeg IMG_3035.jpeg The bottom line is that neither of us would have to waste our time having this discussion if accurate information had been provided initially.
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  13. We have yet to see any evidence that Honda Corporate, their dealers or service advisors possess sufficient intelligence to devise such a scheme. Ask the service advisor to perform a battery capacity test and they’ll give you a CCA number for the 12V battery.

    If you’re actually concerned about becoming a victim of this potential scandal, you may want to consider having the dealer measure the HV battery capacity now, to establish a baseline. This number will be on record and you’ll have a piece of paper with the number as well. Let’s say it’s 50Ah’s. Then, a few years later, when your DIY device indicates the capacity is near the warranty threshold, you can ask the dealer to take another measurement. Should they present you with a figure of 55Ah’s, you’ll have the pleasure of watching them squirm while trying to explain how that’s possible.

    For the truly paranoid, I’d suggest staying with the vehicle for the entire process to ensure that the 12V battery isn’t disconnected prior to the measurement being taken. They might be correct in assuming you’re crackers, but they’ll be clueless as to your superior level of intelligence.
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  14. Danks

    Danks Active Member

    FWIW - My battery capacity reset happened during work at a body shop. No Honda dealer involved. I checked with the body shop about what they did and the only thing that seemed a possibility was they disconnected the 12V battery for an extended time (> 24 hours) as part of their work.
  15. Dan Albrich

    Dan Albrich Well-Known Member

    Actually, I think that isn't the correct question to ask. I mean the question to ask is if you feel that an ICE vehicle (overall, not just engine) will have significant costing repairs in a similar period. And of course trying to guess which option will fare better or maybe same. My 2003 Subaru Outback (my last car) needed a headgasket repair that cost me $3500 in year 12, then same thing happened again in year 16. I opted to get rid of the car in year 16, rather than head gasket repair it twice. i.e. at 16 years old, and about 200K+ miles there are other things that may also go wrong.

    Anyway, It's possible when my battery pack dies, lets assume I get unlucky and it happens in year 12 (of course out of warranty) -- i.e. in the year 2030. It might be the case that I can get a remanufactured battery pack in 2030 for equivalent of $3500 at that time. Dunno, but what I'm getting at is my last ICE vehicle may or may not do better than Clarity reaching an age where I deem it need to be replaced. And of course there's a luck of the draw thing. 6-7% "bad" can also be said that 93% of those surveyed did not have the battery fail in year 12.


    PS: A link to the study:
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2023
  16. Even though the question remains unanswered, it was the correct question. I say this because the information I was seeking was how you would rate a 6-7% engine failure rate in an ICE vehicle, since you rated a 6-7% battery failure rate in an electrified vehicle as “not terrible”. It’s that simple.

    We could carry on endlessly with anecdotal stories about vehicle repair costs. That wasn’t the conversation I was seeking when I asked the question, but I’m happy to add some of my own experiences if you’d like.

    The equivalent to a traction battery in an ICE vehicle would be the fuel tank. It stores the energy that is needed by the propulsion system and the traction battery stores the energy in an electrified vehicle. I may have incorrectly assumed that fuel tank failures are extremely low when I decided to ask you about the failure rate of a major component in an ICE vehicle, that being, the engine.

    If I had to take a stab and the percentage of ICE vehicles that need an engine replacement during the first 10-12 years of operation, I’d put it at less than half a percent. I did a quick internet search on the subject and came up empty. Probably because no one has bothered to keep track of such things. Someone is keeping track of battery failures, however. Probably for good reason.
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  17. I did come across an article on the notorious Kia/Hyundai family of vehicles. It stated that more than 3,000,000 vehicles had been recalled and 161 complaints had been filed with the NHTSA. That would leave it about 180,000 complaints shy of hitting the 6% figure.

    Even the brand that tops the POS list only has 1/1000th of the required failures to reach the level of EV battery failures.
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  18. Dan Albrich

    Dan Albrich Well-Known Member

    I was going to say that 6-7% engine fail rate say in year 12 on gas engines sounds about normal to me. To me, 6-7% is *not* a high rate of failure in year 12. A couple of online links saying 10 years / 200K miles is normal engine lifespan:
  19. Thanks for answering.

    As far as the linked articles go, I wouldn’t hang my hat on either of them. If we were to accept their, admittedly “rough”, estimates as accurate, that 10 years and 150,000-200,000 miles defines the normal lifespan of an internal combustion engine, then we would be looking at an engine failure rate in excess of 50%. That’s based on the normally accepted definition of the words normal and normally, which are used to describe something that occurs most of the time.

    If that’s the case, then batteries are definitely the superior choice in terms of longevity.
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  20. Dan Albrich

    Dan Albrich Well-Known Member

    When I bought the Clarity, family and friends gave me a hard time about buying a weirdo car. They implied it would definitely be a bad decision from a cost perspective vs. buying a traditional gas-only car. The truth is I have no idea whom is correct. I suspect (without data) that PHEVs and EVs will fare better than my family thinks but the specifics can only be known in time.

    At the moment I can rest easy. I've got 3 years left on the HondaCare and 5 years left on the traction battery warranty (since we're in Oregon). I do very much like the car and hope it holds out for a long time.
  21. As some have opined previously, a PHEV is the best and worst of both worlds all in one neat bundle. We could end up with simultaneous engine and battery failures at the 10-12 year mark.

    This is the first and only car we have ever owned where a VSC was even a consideration, and we bought one. From just the participants on this forum we have seen battery failures, wheel bearing failures, wiring harness failures, charger/charging port failures, and of course A/C condenser failures, in some cases multiple times. All in a vehicle, the oldest of which are about 5 years old.

    I still intend to keep this car for many years. The car that was sold when we bought the Clarity was 15 years old and we have a 25 year old pick up truck that I bought new. However, once the VSC and battery warranty expire, it could be one bad battery cell or a mouse bite away from a trip to the junk yard.
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  22. Dan Albrich

    Dan Albrich Well-Known Member

    Agree on all counts. My "other car" is a 2004 Tundra in excellent condition with about 80K miles. I tend to keep care of things I own so I often get longer than average use. As you state, its true there's a lot of unknowns with PHEV. My Clarity lives in a garage and we do lower than average miles per-year. It will have the best chance of a good run.

    And for the record, my Clarity which is running fine had a charger fail under warranty. It was a ~$4600 repair that I didn't pay for. But yes, there have been a number of repairs reported in these forums over time.
  23. David Towle

    David Towle Well-Known Member

    Very very few "normal" people know or care enough to report to NHTSA. This FB group has over 18,000 members, and I would guess (all you can do) about 80% have an engine failure. And I'm sure there are far more failures beyond this group.
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2023

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