28% more expensive to plug in than gas up

Discussion in 'Clarity' started by Geor99, Feb 8, 2019.

  1. jdonalds

    jdonalds Well-Known Member

    For us electricity is $0.15/kwh. Even without our roof solar it is cheaper to drive in EV mode than gas. Gas would have to be under $2.00/gallon for gas to be cheaper. Currently gas is about $2.95/gallon.

    If we put the solar into the mix of course driving in EV wins big time.

    We are not subject to TOU but if we were I'd have to look into buying a battery for the solar system to improve our costs and time shift our usage. In general though I don't think batteries are cost effective. I would start using the charge schedule to charge at the lowest rates.
  2. Claritydfw

    Claritydfw Member

    If I had to pay the much for electricity there is not a chance I would have gotten a Clarity.

    I have had headhunters try to get me to move to CA before but the pay is not that much more than Texas. I am not sure how people can afford to live there.

    The last comment was not to brag or complain. I am truly amazed that the power system is setup like that in CA.
  3. RichL

    RichL Member

    TOU consideration makes a big difference in Ontario Canada.
    Off-peak price 6.5 (¢ per kWh) 7 pm to 7 am
    Mid-peak price 9.4 (¢ per kWh)
    On-peak price 13.2 (¢ per kWh)
    That is CAD. For USD pricing take 30% off.
  4. KentuckyKen

    KentuckyKen Well-Known Member

    Amen. My Clarity is 100% fusion powered (so is my house) and I don’t have to feed banana peels into the Mr. Fusion on back of a DeLorean either. I’m using that big ol’ free fusion plant in the sky. Yep, my Clarity will forever and always be way cheaper in EV than HV.

    The beauty of solar PV is that if you have high electric rates, net metering, and decent local incentives, it will pay for itself in way less than my 10 year ROI with 10 cents/kWhr and no local, state, or utility incentives.
    I only got the 30% Federal tax credit and locked in net metering and my 10 kW system cost $15,000 with every component warranted for 25 years. So I will never have an electric bill (except for the $15/month sevice charge) and will be unaffected by any future rate increases. Just waiting on battery technology to advance and be affordable enough to go off grid. But that’s 10 to 20 years off. Sigh.

    If this card carrying conservative old guy went PHEV and solar in non progressive coal country, then y’all need to do the math and shop around to see if solar may be economically advisable in your situation. And that’s without even considering the environmental impact you’re giving your grandchildren. And being able to tell my utility to kiss my grits is icing on the cake cake.
  5. Geor99

    Geor99 Active Member

    I don't have nor need a heater nor an air conditioner, but yes, it is expensive.

    If I had my current salary in my home state of Louisiana, I would be very well off.

    I am far from well off here. There is some bad traffic, the taxes are high , and many things are more expensive.

    However, it is a nice place. It has perfect weather, good scenery, driving distance to many fun places, low crime, and the people are friendly- at least in SD.

    With kids, it really seems almost impossible to live here if your household brings in under 75k. Obviously many people do it, but it must be really hard.

    That's when 25 cent kWhs hurt and prevent people from buying ev's.
    (I tried to end on topic:))
  6. TIger

    TIger New Member

    That is still cheaper if you are charging 14Kwh every day
  7. JCEV

    JCEV Active Member

    Yeah its a no brainer in Ontario with the price of gas vs electricity. Plus all our energy produced CO2 free .. Nuclear, hydro and wind for the win!

    LegoZ and Louis Nisenbaum like this.
  8. bfd

    bfd Active Member

    This is true (actually $0.093 - which includes both delivery and electricity charge). The devil is in the details on that Time of Use plan, however.

    #1 - There is a basic $16/mo Service Fee
    #2 - The Summer On-Peak (4PM-9PM from June 1- October 31) charge is $0.519 (!!)

    So in some cases, this schedule could save some customers a little money. Those with solar energy systems on Solar TOU or NM 2.0 need not apply - well you can try, but they won't let you… (though the rest of the rate schedule is almost identical to the Solar/NM 2.0 TOU). Anyone who works for a living (so they're not home during the day) and lives more than a few miles from the coast (where it really heats up) will likely see any savings quickly negated by summer AC costs (at almost 52¢/kWh).

    BUT - SDG&E also has had a yearly EV/PHEV rebate going for the past few years. The rebate involves a cash credit (it's been as little as $200/qualifying vehicle and as much - last year - as $500/qualifying vehicle) So that can offset a few summer months.

    Regardless, the price of electricity in the entire state is going nowhere but up - particularly with all the fires caused by electricity transmission and the efforts to mitigate them. While taxes on things like gas are said to be high - and they are comparatively - when you look at other states with similar state gas tax rates, their price per gallon can still be up to 60-70¢/gal less than here in CA. So why is gasoline itself so expensive. And that goes to the kind of regulated formulations that are sold here to mitigate air pollution. I don't have a problem with that because I remember what the air quality was like 40 years ago. Can't ever go back to that.

    Our own solar energy system and incentives help. But there will be up to 5 years before our investment starts paying off - and that's because we use so much of the stuff - year round - with both a BEV and PHEV. It might take others even longer to see a pay off.
    MNSteve likes this.
  9. PHEV Newbie

    PHEV Newbie Well-Known Member

    My bad. I forgot to say that's compared to driving my Subaru Outback. At current low gasoline prices and the loss of range in winter driving, there's not a big difference in cost whether I use electrons or gas to power my Clarity. That's because it gets such good HV mileage.
  10. neal adkins

    neal adkins Active Member

    My electricity is only about 10 ¢ kwh in Arizona from 8pm to 3pm. Only on peak for five hours. Im still considering a small solar system just to charge the car. Any advise on this?
  11. KentuckyKen

    KentuckyKen Well-Known Member

    I did a ton of research on solar (retired, so plenty of time) before I took the plunge. I would be happy to go over the technical details that are much too numerous to post. PM me and I’ll give you my phone # if you’re interested.
    Short list of non technical points:
    1 Get estimates from every reputable solar installer in your area and play them off each other just as you do when car shopping. This will save a lot.
    2 Get every thing in writing; especially warranties and power production estimates. Most use Aurora software to estimate production over a calendar year. So you can compare not just $/installed kW, but also $/production. Just be sure the production estimates you’re comparing use the same software calculations so it’s apples to apples for the return on investment.
    3 Talk to and visit if possible past clients to weed out problematic companies.
    4 Compare warranties of different manufacturer’s solar cells; both product and efficiency to see which panels are more cost effective.
    For example, I went with Panasonic panels which were
    -almost as efficient as pricier ones
    -had lower yearly loss of efficiency
    -have a 25 yr product (malfunction) warranty, not just an efficiency warranty
    5 After due diligence and agreeing to price and specifics, then ask for extras at time of signing the contract. (If you ask for them up front they will just fold them into the total price). Again just like car buying. For example, for no price increase I got my monitoring hard Ethernet wired to my router instead of WIFi, an extended manufacturer’s warranty on the inverter, and a 5 year labor warranty.
    Now my entire system is warranted for 25 years Parts and 5 years labor, and the solar panels have a 25 year production warranty (some are only 20).
    6 Only technical note to mention since you’re in Arizona which implies plenty of heat to go with all that sun, is to check the thermal coefficients of the panels because efficiency declines with heat at different rates for different PV panels. (Kinda of like cold reducing efficiency in our EVs, just in the opposite direction.)
    7 It’s cheaper to do it all at once rather than go small and add to later.
    8 Some manufacturers now have inverters with built in EVSEs. I don’t know how much they increase the price but if you don’t already have a Level 2 EVSE it might be worth checking into.
    9 South facing panels with no shade and net metering maximize efficiency and reduce the time needed to break even. Check local utility to see how long you’re grandfathered in for net metering since utilities are trying to do away with this. This is crucial for ROI calculations.

    Best wishes and feel free to PM me for more details.
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2019
  12. Richard_arch74

    Richard_arch74 Active Member

    Neal, as @KentuckyKen mentioned it takes a lot of research as there are so many variables that go into having the right system for you needs.

    You mentioned a small array to charge your car: if that is the case, I would look at an off grid array with storage.

    @Sandroad has a system like this and I believe he could give you some good advice if that is the way you want to go. If you can afford the premium panels, I would go with them as they will generally have better efficiency and warranties. One huge advantage to going with an off grid array is the minimal level of utility approvals, if any, and inspections you will need. Here in Michigan the approval process, for a grid tied array, (through the utility) and inspections are cumbersome.
    One last thing, check with your local ordinance, or HOA, as they may have something to say about your proposed system. If you think you want to go the grid tied system route, you can DM me, if you wish.
    Good luck with your process and selection.

    Sent from my SM-G955U using Inside EVs mobile app
  13. bfd

    bfd Active Member

    Sunshine tax. It's a real thing.

    (I was surprised to "charge up" tonight while we were at the basketball game at SDSU for 20¢/kWh. That's less than we pay at home.)
  14. The Gadgeteer

    The Gadgeteer Active Member

    Almost .17 KW in NJ, my meter showed 14KW at my last full electric charge. Electric Cost 14*.17=$2.38. Which is about the cost of a gallon of top tier regular gas in my area.
    I was hoping to have free charging at work but I am a consultant. That privilege is only for employees at my workplace.
    Still a great car and I have no regrets.
  15. dnb

    dnb Active Member

    Yep my pricing for PG&E is terrible atm and their EV rates seem to have changed a lot to make it cost a ton if you use power during the day. Since I work from home I can only charge at home and unless I bought a L2 charger charging only at night isn't an option. So I'm paying roughly the same amount for EV as I do gas, but I do enjoy not having to go to the gas station and having clean power (power is supplied by solar array in my area thats sold to PG&E). So I'm paying roughly $0.28/kwh so about $4.

    Since my only option for lower rates would be the time of use, I'd have to not use any power during the day to make up the diff, and thats impossible and stupid... their hours are ridiculous at 11pm - 7am as off peak... so great I can use tons of power while I'm sleeping but waking hours are a no go... @ 20-33c winter and 26-47c summer

    Anyway mini rant since PG&E sucks :p. Just glad I can use either, and with snow and cold weather I don't mind using gas since it helps with the heat :D
  16. MNSteve

    MNSteve Well-Known Member

    Isn't there a timed charge feature in the car and in the HondaLink app that you could use with a level-1 charger?

    (I feel guilty posting this since I just complained in another post about people who provide information on topics they don't know, and here I am doing exactly that. I have never used the scheduled-charge feature.)
  17. dnb

    dnb Active Member

    There is, but the time period for the cheap power is only 11pm -> 7am, which is less than the 12hr for a full charge. Plus I like to use the pre-conditioning and since it takes 30+ min (I have it start ~30 before I leave and sometimes even start it again manually) to precondition on a lvl 1 charger it wouldn't make sense to only charge at night and pre-condition off a lvl 1 with the rate differences.
  18. MNSteve

    MNSteve Well-Known Member

    So buy a level-2 charger. The payback period would probably be only a little more than your lifetime . . .
  19. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    I would guess SDGE = San Diego Gas & Electric

    TOU = Time Of Use, referring to those lucky souls (myself not included) who live where the local power company offers different rates depending on time of day, presumably charging more during peak demand hours and less during periods of low demand. That usually means a lower rate at night, where different TOU rates apply.

    I once called our local power company (here in eastern Kansas) to ask if they had a off-peak or night-time rate. The woman I talked to didn't even know what I was talking about. *Sigh*

  20. MNSteve

    MNSteve Well-Known Member

    My similar call revealed that they have a program here, but on paper only. In order to participate, a new metering facility is required, and the customer pays for its installation. The payback period is sufficiently long that they've had no takers yet, which appears to be by design. I had an interesting discussion with the manager at the local co-op, who was genuinely interested in what I was doing and why I was doing it, and what services they could provide. But I am such a tiny minority of their customers that it just doesn't make financial sense for them at this point.

    This is just one symptom of being on the bleeding edge of technology. Those of you from regions where this is more common have less pain, but every Clarity owner is basically a member of a beta-test group. I just read a post from someone who ended up driving 200 miles to find a Honda dealer who could spell C-l-a-r-i-t-y.
    Rajiv Vaidyanathan likes this.

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