XtsKonaTrooper
Well-Known Member
Im bias but when you look at the range compared to others, the Kona is still best for the buck.
Ford Mustang Mach-E
- Thread starter nigels
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Nice to see our "best value for the buck" Kona compared to other top end models, only blunder - no M3
Ford mentioned they would have select dealers handling their EVs. I just bought a Tesla 3 Performance, and my dealer was my mouse. As we all know there are no real regular service items except tire rotation and brakes at about 100 - 150 K (as I understand it). So, I'm curious if Ford will be "building in" regular service intervals. On another forum a poster said they were interested in the Mach because they didn't trust Tesla. Well, I absolutely feel that way about American car dealers. Let's see if Ford can turn that prejudice around with their EV.
Pushmi-Pullyu
Well-Known Member
I'm a big Tesla fan, but let's be honest here: There is good reason to be skeptical of a new auto maker. Tesla has had some well-publicized early build quality problems with all of its models to date. Tesla really needs to take more time to eliminate problems in new models before they start selling them to the public. If they don't, then everyone would be well advised to wait for a year after Tesla starts selling a new model before considering buying one.
There's also the question of long-term viability in a new auto maker. I think Tesla is past the point at which it's likely to have an early financial failure, but others may think there's still a significant risk of sudden collapse. (Unfortunately, there are a lot of people out there who want the EV revolution to fail, and so keep predicting that Tesla will go bankwupt, not because there is any realistic near-term possibility of that, but because it's what they desperately want to happen!)
Anytime a car company introduces a new vehicle there should skepticism about the first batch. You never know what could happen. There's Mach-E forums already up and running and the people on there are skeptical about how Ford delivers on it.
I too have some concerns about Tesla long term financial health. I also have concerns about Ford's E car design capabilities. I know they sold a few of the focus & fusion, but those were low range vehicles, probably not great designs compared to Tesla. Is Ford doing the Mach-E design and build all in-house? I guess I'm wondering out loud if they know what they're doing and will it be good long term car.
Pushmi-Pullyu
Well-Known Member
Ford has made a deal with a well-respected EV startup, Rivian. The deal supposedly gives Ford some of Rivian's EV tech. That deal seems too recent for any of Rivian's tech to appear in the Mach-E, but who knows? I've been known to be wrong from time to time.
I don't have any inside info, but my guess is that Ford is developing their EV tech more-or-less in-house. They don't seem to be farming out development and production of the entire EV powertrain to an outside company, as GM did for the Chevy Bolt. I personally think that was a huge mistake on GM's part, and automotive teardown expert Sandy Munro was very dismissive of how the Bolt was rushed into production, with many poor engineering compromises. But we will see how things develop.
My personal, subjective impression is that Ford is lagging far behind on EV tech, and now will have to struggle mightily in an attempt to catch up. Tech sharing with Rivian will certainly help, but will it help enough for Ford to survive the EV revolution without being propped up by a bailout from the U.S. Federal Government? I have my doubts, but again we will see how things develop over the next 10 years. Maybe Ford will be helped more than I think by Rivian's tech.
ericy
Well-Known Member
I thought Ford was partnering with VW to share some of the tech.
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/11/for...ions-in-autonomous-and-electric-vehicles.html
Pushmi-Pullyu
Well-Known Member
I had gotten the impression that it was just that VW had offered to sell some of their BEV skateboards (or chassis) to Ford, but that CNBC article says it includes some sharing of intellectual property.
I always read news from CNBC regarding the EV industry with a large dose of salt, because of their frequent habit of putting an anti-Tesla bias on their reporting, even sometimes descending to the level of what I'd call outright FUD. However, in this case I see other news outlets are reporting similar info, so I think here I can disregard my usual doubt about news from that source.
What I meant by "not trusting Ford", had nothing to do with their survival, but whether they were capable of providing an honest, EV. While Tesla has extremely spare service requirements, currently the average car dealership makes 44% of their profit from "service" (what's behind Connecticut and Texas trying to ban Tesla). I mean is one going to be confronted by a bunch of "techs" for regular, costly, useless service wearing tin-foil hats claiming you need to change a Quantum Quart of Flux Capacitor Fluid?
Pushmi-Pullyu
Well-Known Member
That's one of the problems with the business model of the independent auto dealer: That they make most of their money not from selling cars, but from servicing them. That business model was created when auto dealers were able to create local or regional monopolies for selling a certain brand of car, and was dependent on the average buyer not being able to determine the actual fair market value for a car. That gave the dealer a huge advantage in negotiating a selling price with the customer, who had no idea how much the dealer paid the auto maker for the car.
These days, using the Internet, anybody can fairly easily find out what a fair market value for a car is. Anybody can also check to see what dealers are offering special deals on a given model.
I predict that one of the changes brought by the EV revolution will be auto makers dumping the "middle man" of the independent dealer. Tesla has shown it's possible to be successful by using the "Apple" model for sales, selling products at its own stores, using sales reps who are (mostly) not paid a commission, and don't use high-pressure sales techniques. I predict legacy auto makers will move to dump the "middle man" just like Tesla has.
The independent dealer, and its service department, must make a profit separate from the auto maker's profit to stay in business. This is precisely why it's more financially efficient to cut out the "middle man", to eliminate the need for him to make a separate profit. And that's why I predict that most legacy auto makers will move away from the traditional independent dealer business model, as the EV revolution progresses. In fact, Volkswagen is already experimenting with a different business arrangement with their European dealers. According to reports, if that is successful then they'll move to do the same with their American dealers. Of course, using a different business arrangement for a middle man isn't cutting out the middle man, but at least VW is doing some experimenting. I'd call that a halfway measure toward eliminating the middle man. Of course, that's just my somewhat subjective opinion.
Will be interesting to see how Ford (etc.) handles the potential upheaval. Not only is it against the law to buy a Tesla in Texas, they're trying to make it against the law to get it serviced, if you bring one into Texas. I suppose a Texas Tesla independent repair shop will become like a speak-easy from the 1930's.
Pushmi-Pullyu
Well-Known Member
That, I suspect, will very quickly be ruled unlawful under the interstate commerce clause of the U.S. Constitution. That seems like a cut-and-dried case to me. If it's lawful to license a car in the State, then I think most reasonable people would agree it has to be possible to get it lawfully serviced in the State. Of course courts do occasionally deliver perverse judgements that have to be appealed, but I think the odds of that happening in this case, even in the State of Texas, are fairly low.
Just my non-lawyerly opinion, of course.