Taycan impresses

D

David Green

Well-Known Member
I think Tesla's EV Cannonball run time in the USA is about to get blown away, especially considering VW is the only company with an ultra fast charging network across the USA... Things are heating up...

https://insideevs.com/news/365827/porsche-taycan-24-hours-endurance/

Bob, is this 24 hr time a new metric we should track on EV's, it seems more useful a stat then 0-60 that few of us ever do. I mean VW is fastest up Pikes Peak, fastest at the Nurburgring, and now most 24 hour miles on track. Where is Tesla to show their engineering prowess? Oh ya, service hell, production hell, distribution hell, funding secured hell...
 
David Green said:
Bob, is this 24 hr time a new metric we should track on EV's, it seems more useful a stat then 0-60 that few of us ever do. I mean VW is fastest up Pikes Peak, fastest at the Nurburgring, and now most 24 hour miles on track. Where is Tesla to show their engineering prowess? Oh ya, service hell, production hell, distribution hell, funding secured hell...
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All this is great, but I am still waiting for a decent road car from VW that gives me about 275 miles + per charge and and is less than $45 or 50K out of the door price (no factoring rebates, I should pay not more than 45-50K to the dealer including everything) and it should have a fair amount of luxury features (not a striped down basic car) and be fair sized sedan (not a little hatchback). And I do not live in California, so it has to be available in other states. Model 3 is closest to my target.

The e-Golf wont cut it for range, I am not interested in paying $80,000 + for the E-tron. So while I am glad that VW is interested in sweeping Tesla under the rug, the proof of the pudding is in having a range of models that cater to a large swatch of customers. I realize that you are going to come back with some sort aggressive response, but what I want to see is actual products on dealer lots that I can look, drive and feel comfortable with. I do not see a plan for a real Model 3 killer (better features, lower price, better range) anytime soon. 2 years from now Tesla may be going great guns, it may die or be bought over etc. I have no idea of the future. What I see now is that a lot of paper tigers, no products that are actually comparable to Tesla's offerings. I am sure you disagree but that is my 1-c-.
 
David Green said:
I mean VW is fastest up Pikes Peak, fastest at the Nurburgring,
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Was that the Taycan?

Is the Taycan for sale in the USA? Apparently not: https://www.porsche.com/usa/aboutporsche/e-performance/

Thank you for your interest in the new Porsche Taycan vehicle.

Please complete your personal information below, select a participating authorized Porsche dealer of your choice, confirm that you have read and understand the program details and general terms and conditions to officially start the deposit option process. The chosen dealer will reach out to confirm intent and discuss next steps with you.
. . . ​

Bob Wilson
 
interestedinEV said:
All this is great, but I am still waiting for a decent road car from VW that gives me about 275 miles + per charge and and is less than $45 or 50K out of the door price (no factoring rebates, I should pay not more than 45-50K to the dealer including everything) and it should have a fair amount of luxury features (not a striped down basic car) and be fair sized sedan (not a little hatchback). And I do not live in California, so it has to be available in other states. Model 3 is closest to my target.

The e-Golf wont cut it for range, I am not interested in paying $80,000 + for the E-tron. So while I am glad that VW is interested in sweeping Tesla under the rug, the proof of the pudding is in having a range of models that cater to a large swatch of customers. I realize that you are going to come back with some sort aggressive response, but what I want to see is actual products on dealer lots that I can look, drive and feel comfortable with. I do not see a plan for a real Model 3 killer (better features, lower price, better range) anytime soon. 2 years from now Tesla may be going great guns, it may die or be bought over etc. I have no idea of the future. What I see now is that a lot of paper tigers, no products that are actually comparable to Tesla's offerings. I am sure you disagree but that is my 1-c-.
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Hmm, sounds like Model 3 is a good fit for you, why have you not bought one? I personally do not buy entry level cars that lack luxury features that my work pickup has.

VW is clearly coming and has developed some technology far superior to Tesla, try the cannon ball run in Tesla's product in the Taycan's segment, Model S...
 
bwilson4web said:
Was that the Taycan?

Is the Taycan for sale in the USA? Apparently not: https://www.porsche.com/usa/aboutporsche/e-performance/

Thank you for your interest in the new Porsche Taycan vehicle.

Please complete your personal information below, select a participating authorized Porsche dealer of your choice, confirm that you have read and understand the program details and general terms and conditions to officially start the deposit option process. The chosen dealer will reach out to confirm intent and discuss next steps with you.
. . . ​

Bob Wilson
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Taycan is coming, Bob, production is just a couple months away... Unveil in 2 weeks...
 
We are seeing some very promising reports about the Taycan. Hopefully Porsche has a solidly designed and built BEV. It's about time that some auto maker made a car that can actually challenge Tesla's superior engineering, and perhaps Porsche will be the first to do so!

I'm glad that Porsche isn't still pretending the Taycan can fully charge in 15 minutes; that was obviously not true and IMHO Porsche just embarrassed themselves by making such a ridiculous claim. Now that they've stopped that nonsense, perhaps we can get some honest reporting about the actual capabilities of the car. I'd like to know what it's really capable of!


​
 
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bwilson4web said:
Good. Hopefully we can get accurate metrics once it is in the hands of owners.

Bob Wilson
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Ah, you will not like it Bob, as you are more into economy cars... People buying low range Model 3's, and Prius are not the target market. One clever thing I like on the Taycan is the floor pockets in the back seat where they notched the battery pack for back seat foot wells (this is Tesla's biggest engineering fail on the Model S making the seat so low or floor so high, however you see it) Modes S performance customers are the target for Taycan, and since the Porsche will blow the S away in every Metric other than Ludicrous 0-60 times, I think we will have a winner. Shoot even my good friends wife (surgeon) has been trying to get my reservation spot to get a Taycan earlier( I still have not decided if I will move forward on the Taycan or not as we do not have garage space unless the Lexus finds a new home, and I have a hard time parting with such a reliable vehicle), what's more funny is that she is not into EV's at all, but the other Dr's at the hospital have been talking about Taycan, so got her interested.
 
David Green said:
Hmm, sounds like Model 3 is a good fit for you, why have you not bought one? I personally do not buy entry level cars that lack luxury features that my work pickup has.

VW is clearly coming and has developed some technology far superior to Tesla, try the cannon ball run in Tesla's product in the Taycan's segment, Model S...
Click to expand...

Why I have not bought one is beside the point. I am sure you have certain tastes and expectations, and you have the right to have it. Similarly, I may not go for everything, not because I cannot afford it, but because I do not see the price-value of the additional features. And I have the right to my tastes

My larger point is that there is a segmentation gap. You have the smaller Bolts and Leafs at one end and you have others attacking the higher end. No one else, at least in the US, has an offering that has a 250+ mile range with some of the decent features that M3 offers. Tesla is selling around 15,000 M3 cars a month, which is not a number to sniff at. If someone wanted to go at Tesla, I would consider aiming my product offerings at M3. Curious as to why VW (or anyone else) has not made that a priority. One reason could be that everyone wants to milk the $7,500 federal initiative to max and not get down to actual price competition.

As I keep saying, talk is cheap. Let us revisit this topic in say a year and see how much inroads that the VW Group (Including all brands) has actually made. You may be confident that Tesla would have folded by then, I still do not see that as likely. Time will tell.
 
interestedinEV said:
Why I have not bought one is beside the point. I am sure you have certain tastes and expectations, and you have the right to have it. Similarly, I may not go for everything, not because I cannot afford it, but because I do not see the price-value of the additional features. And I have the right to my tastes

My larger point is that there is a segmentation gap. You have the smaller Bolts and Leafs at one end and you have others attacking the higher end. No one else, at least in the US, has an offering that has a 250+ mile range with some of the decent features that M3 offers. Tesla is selling around 15,000 M3 cars a month, which is not a number to sniff at. If someone wanted to go at Tesla, I would consider aiming my product offerings at M3. Curious as to why VW (or anyone else) has not made that a priority. One reason could be that everyone wants to milk the $7,500 federal initiative to max and not get down to actual price competition.

As I keep saying, talk is cheap. Let us revisit this topic in say a year and see how much inroads that the VW Group (Including all brands) has actually made. You may be confident that Tesla would have folded by then, I still do not see that as likely. Time will tell.
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Bolt goes 250 miles on a charge, and has beat Model S 75D in official tests a few times(Consumer Reports comes to mind), even thought the EPA rates the range of the Model S higher. I think at some point Tesla will face class action over range claims as I have driven enough and have enough of them in my circle of friends and none of them can hit their rated range consistently. For the record My E-Tron has exceeded its rated range all 5 times I have driven over the total.

As for VW, and other makers corporate product plans, I do not know when they will officially go after the model 3, I actually think they would be smart to leapfrog, and go after the Model Y (VW Crozz) business first as with higher ASP on the crossovers you will have a better chance of profitability, and it's a much hotter segment. Model 3 is plateauing, and USA sales in July and August are much lower than the same month in 2018 which means saturation is happening in the USA. In my area Tesla has quite a lot of Model 3 inventory, so looks like the bloom is off the rose already. The same will happen later this year in Europe, China, and Australia. Basically I think other makers are going to yield the entry sedan business to Tesla and go after the profitable models. Makes more sense, right?
 
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David Green said:
...I have driven enough and have enough of them in my circle of friends and none of them can hit their rated range consistently.
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You appear very confused; you've been bashing Tesla cars for years, but now you claim to have bought one despite telling everybody, dozens or hundreds of times, how bad they are. So which set of your sharply contradictory claims do you expect anyone to believe?

I don't think anyone believes any of the claims made about Tesla cars by you and your "circle of friends", the self-appointed "Shorty Air Force" at the TslaQ anti-Tesla cult. You guys take Tesla bashing to the level of tinfoil-hat conspiracy theories.

In fact, according to some reports posted to InsideEVs, Tesla has deliberately under-rated the range ratings for some trim levels of the Model 3.

If there was any inflation of Tesla's EPA rated ranges, we'd have known about it long before now. Ford didn't get away with inflating the range for their PHEVs, the C-MAX and (if I recall correctly) the Fusion Energi. The EPA forced Ford to lower their range estimates to something closer to reality.
 
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Articles on the Taycan. Yes it is impressive, so is the estimated price $130,000. Again not sure as this is going to be a Tesla Killer as it is a little higher price point than the S/X. Sure, some who were considering S/X might go towards the Taycan but again it is just me, I do not see a large number of S/X buyers migrating to Taycan. That said, VW is trying to chip away at S/X with the e-tron, Taycan, e-tron GT etc. So yes S/X is coming under fire with VW offerings, Mercedes Benz Offerings etc. but it still about 3-5 quarters away.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/whats-taycan-long-look-electric-220100774.html

https://www.caranddriver.com/porsche/taycan

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g26347641/porsche-taycan-ev-spy-photos-details/
 
They are trying to stop customer erosion from their existing, high-margin, luxury ICE cars to Teslas.

Bob Wilson
 
bwilson4web said:
They are trying to stop customer erosion from their existing, high-margin, luxury ICE cars to Teslas.

Bob Wilson
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Right, I agree with you. However, by this, they are limiting the future growth of S/X and this means that Tesla has to do something different. They have already increased the range to 370 miles which is great.
 
interestedinEV said:
Articles on the Taycan. Yes it is impressive, so is the estimated price $130,000. Again not sure as this is going to be a Tesla Killer as it is a little higher price point than the S/X. Sure, some who were considering S/X might go towards the Taycan but again it is just me, I do not see a large number of S/X buyers migrating to Taycan. That said, VW is trying to chip away at S/X with the e-tron, Taycan, e-tron GT etc. So yes S/X is coming under fire with VW offerings, Mercedes Benz Offerings etc. but it still about 3-5 quarters away.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/whats-taycan-long-look-electric-220100774.html

https://www.caranddriver.com/porsche/taycan

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g26347641/porsche-taycan-ev-spy-photos-details/
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I think Taycan is going to be priced from $90K USD to $130K USD depending on power, etc.. They will also later have a RWD only model, with smaller battery to make it more sporty to throw around on a track. Excited to see the exterior as the concept is one of the most sexy looking cars on the planet, but the prototypes look rather boring. I have a friend who loves her Model S, but when she saw the Taycan interior she loved it, I think she will take her order.
 
David Green said:
I think Taycan is going to be priced from $90K USD to $130K USD depending on power, etc.. They will also later have a RWD only model, with smaller battery to make it more sporty to throw around on a track. Excited to see the exterior as the concept is one of the most sexy looking cars on the planet, but the prototypes look rather boring. I have a friend who loves her Model S, but when she saw the Taycan interior she loved it, I think she will take her order.
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I am quoting $130K based on car and driver's numbers. I really doubt that it will available for $90K and that Car and Driver will be that much off. If you and your friend are serious, plan for $130K +.
 
interestedinEV said:
I am quoting $130K based on car and driver's numbers. I really doubt that it will available for $90K and that Car and Driver will be that much off. If you and your friend are serious, plan for $130K +.
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I have friends inside VW, Taycan will be available under 100K, although not at first, Like Tesla and Audi, they will first saturate the higher end "Turbo" model, and then come down as demand stagnates. If I were going to buy the one I have on order, $130K would not stop me, but I will probably pass it onto a surgeon friend, $130K for a car for will not slow her down either. My other realtor friend may or may not wait for a lower priced Taycan, she is currently crying over the trade in value of her Tesla which has lost over 50% of its value in 16K miles which must be painful.
 
David Green said:
My other realtor friend may or may not wait for a lower priced Taycan, she is currently crying over the trade in value of her Tesla which has lost over 50% of its value in 16K miles which must be painful.
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Mr. Green apparently has a lot of imaginary "friends," and oddly enough, they all seem to share his fantasies and delusions about Tesla and its cars.
:confused: :rolleyes: o_O
 
OK found the EV New website. A comparison of the S with the Taycan. Does not appear that Taycan can deliver a knockout blow, the S holds itself in some important metrics. I am sure that there is a lot of impressive engineering in the Taycan, but you have to look at the parameters that matter to a wider swatch of buyers.

https://insideevs.com/reviews/366625/tesla-model-s-porsche-taycan-compared/

Some excerpts

First of all, it seems that Porsche Taycan (see unofficial specs) will not match the Tesla Model S (even versions from a few years ago) in key figures:


  • Range: 370 miles (595 km) in case of Tesla Model S and expected some 310 miles (499 km) in case of Taycan. The difference is more than 15%.
  • Acceleration 0-60 mph: 2.4 seconds (Tesla Model S) vs maybe 3.1-3.5 seconds (Porsche Taycan). The time is at least 30% higher.
  • Charging: up to 200 kW (Tesla Model S), up to 250 kW (Tesla Model 3) and 250 kW (Porsche Taycan). The promised 350 kW charging at 800 V is not expected at the launch (rather 2021).

Other things mentioned by GasTrol is the design of the production version, which is closer to a Panamera than to the stunning, out-of-this-earth Mission E concept.


Finally, the price of the Porsche Taycan is expected to be significantly higher than the Tesla Model S, while Model 3 Performance owners will reportedly get the same acceleration (0-60 mph) at half the price.


Those are all important things while considering a new car, especially when buying such an expensive car.


To defend Porsche, we must add that we don't know official specs and pricing of the Taycan and that there will be other competitive advantages - it might be the driving experience (which is very important too) or the quality and refinement.
 
You’ve hit the nail squarely on the head!

Vendor claims are often ‘optimistic’ compared to what the EPA and owners reveal. “Clean diesel” comes to mind. Even past advocacy of the I-Pace met reality.

Bob Wilson
 
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