Why shouldn't I charge my 64 kWh Kona EV to 100% every day?

brulaz said:
Yes the BEV.
How do we know the Kona's reported 100% SOC is not actually 80% of the real usable capacity?
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We can't "know" that, but this would mean that Hyundai has chosen to give their BEV something like 15% less range than it could have if they used more of the full capacity of the battery pack.

That's not impossible, but what BEV maker would voluntarily make its car that much less competitive, and why?
​
 
Wildeyed said:
I've really got to ask for citations at this point. Reapeating the same advice as though it was gospel does not make it true. Why would a manufacturer with warranties and reputation on the line not recommend the 80/20 gospel if it were true?
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If you read the following discussion thread and follow all the links to read the source documents, you'll probably come out knowing more than I do about the care and feeding of lithium-ion batteries, including the benefit of using the 80%/20% charge/discharge cycle:

"Why do Li-ion Batteries die? And how to improve the situation?"

Re Nissan removing the ability of the Leaf to charge to 80% to get a higher EPA range rating:

https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=17111

Re the controversy over charging to 100% to "balance" a li-ion battery pack:

https://web.archive.org/web/2015040...ives-comforting-answer-concerns-re-loss-range

Re charging to 100% to (supposedly) balance the pack only every 3 months:

https://www.teslarati.com/top-5-tips-to-maintaining-ev-battery/

* * * * *

If you want to see citations in support of more specific points I've made, or really any of the assertions I've made, Wildeyed, then please do post a follow-up request.

I try to learn all I can about EVs and I try to share what I know, but I've never claimed to be an expert on these subjects and I am occasionally corrected on my "facts" or assertions. But that's great when it happens; it means I learn something that day!
:)
 
"Unlikely. It's generally just an 8 year warranty, and it's also limited to a maximum mileage. I don't think any auto maker offers a "lifetime" or unlimited mileage warranty for a BEV battery pack."


That's not correct, it is lifetime. I wasn't asking if the warranty was lifetime (because I know it is) I was saying "it's a lifetime warranty so ultimately, even if we don't know what the perfect charging "rules" are, and something does happen to the battery pack, at least we have it under warranty, you know?"

A further comment I would add is that charging to 100% or not - my answer would change if Hyundai said things in the manual like "charging to 100% on a regular basis voids the warranty", but they don't instruct anything like that and as was mentioned above, in fact tell you to charge to specifically charge to 100% in some cases.

Ultimately I think others have hit on the main point, the battery pack is larger than 64 kWh. 100% isn't really 100%. Which is yet another reason I'll continue to charge to 100% on AC but generally only 80% on DC fast.

From the Hyundai website:


Lifetime Hybrid/Electric Battery Warranty**
(SEL) Standard
(Limited) Standard
(Ultimate) Standard
**The Lifetime Electric Battery Warranty applies to all U.S. 2019 model-year Kona Electrics. The Lifetime Electric Battery Warranty ensures that if the lithium polymer battery fails, Hyundai will replace the battery and cover recycling costs for the old battery free of charge to the original owner. The Lifetime Electric Battery Warranty excludes coverage for vehicles placed in commercial use (e.g., taxi, route delivery, rental, etc.).​
 
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Mattsburgh said:
"Unlikely. It's generally just an 8 year warranty, and it's also limited to a maximum mileage. I don't think any auto maker offers a "lifetime" or unlimited mileage warranty for a BEV battery pack."

That's not correct, it is lifetime. I wasn't asking if the warranty was lifetime (because I know it is)...
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Okay, exercising my Google-fu I see there is what Hyundai is calling a "lifetime battery warranty", but it doesn't cover normal battery degradation over time. In fact the wording says it applies only to "complete failure of the lithium-ion battery packs in these vehicles".

Hyundai is extending the lifetime battery warranty offered on previous electrified models to the 2017 Ioniq lineup as well.

The warranty applies to all versions of Hyundai's first dedicated green car, including the Ioniq Hybrid, Ioniq Electric, and Ioniq Plug-In Hybrid.

As with previous Hyundai models, the warranty applies to complete failure of the lithium-ion battery packs in these vehicles, not to any degradation in battery capacity that may occur over time.
​
https://www.greencarreports.com/new...niq-to-have-lifetime-battery-failure-warranty

Upstream, you said:

Mattsburgh said:
I mean "worst case" scenario you get earlier degradation of the charging capacity .. say at 8 years instead of 10 or 12 or 15. Well... then the warranty kicks in.
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The point I was trying to make, altho perhaps I wasn't specific enough in what I said, was that no BEV maker would ever offer a lifetime warranty on degradation due to normal cycling over time.
 
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Pushmi-Pullyu said:
Okay, exercising my Google-fu I see there is what Hyundai is calling a "lifetime battery warranty", but it doesn't cover normal battery degradation over time. In fact the wording says it applies only to "complete failure of the lithium-ion battery packs in these vehicles".

Hyundai is extending the lifetime battery warranty offered on previous electrified models to the 2017 Ioniq lineup as well.


The warranty applies to all versions of Hyundai's first dedicated green car, including the Ioniq Hybrid, Ioniq Electric, and Ioniq Plug-In Hybrid.


As with previous Hyundai models, the warranty applies to complete failure of the lithium-ion battery packs in these vehicles, not to any degradation in battery capacity that may occur over time.
​
https://www.greencarreports.com/new...niq-to-have-lifetime-battery-failure-warranty
​
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No, it doesn't say "complete failure of the lithium-ion battery packs in these vehicles" - you're reading something that doesn't pertain to 2019 Kona Electrics. It also doesn't say "limited".

I posted the exact wording from the Hyundai Kona Electric webpage. It's above in my previous post.
 
Mattsburgh said:
No, it doesn't say "complete failure of the lithium-ion battery packs in these vehicles" - you're reading something that doesn't pertain to 2019 Kona Electrics. It also doesn't say "limited".
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Say what? The wording is crystal clear:

As with previous Hyundai models, the warranty applies to complete failure of the lithium-ion battery packs in these vehicles, not to any degradation in battery capacity that may occur over time.​

That clearly applies to all Hyundai BEVs, not just the Kona or just the Ioniq.

If you still think I'm wrong, call your Hyundai service center and ask if their "lifetime battery warranty" covers normal loss of capacity over time.

Hint: It doesn't. That's not opinion, it's fact. No BEV maker could possibly afford to cover normal loss due to cycling for the lifetime of the vehicle. That would be as ruinous as a gasmobile maker guaranteeing to replace the engine and transmission for the lifetime of the vehicle due to normal wear-and-tear from driving the car.
​
 
Pushmi-Pullyu said:
Say what? The wording is crystal clear:

As with previous Hyundai models, the warranty applies to complete failure of the lithium-ion battery packs in these vehicles, not to any degradation in battery capacity that may occur over time.​

That clearly applies to all Hyundai BEVs, not just the Kona or just the Ioniq.

If you still think I'm wrong, call your Hyundai service center and ask if their "lifetime battery warranty" covers normal loss of capacity over time.

Hint: It doesn't. That's not opinion, it's fact. No BEV maker could possibly afford to cover normal loss due to cycling.
​
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Sigh. I'm really tiring of this, I have to tell you. Please stop spreading misinformation and please stop playing fast and loose with facts. You are quoting something that was written in 2017. I am quoting the exact words from the warranty of the 2019 Hyundai Kona Electric today. On the website right now. TODAY. Has it occurred to you that in 2017 the 2019 Hyundai Kona Electric was NOT a "PREVIOUS HYUNDAI MODEL" ? Has that detail somehow escaped your attention?

You were wrong when you said it was "unlikely" that Hyundai offered a lifetime warranty on the battery pack - they do. You were wrong when you said "I don't think any auto maker offers a "lifetime" or unlimited mileage warranty for a BEV battery pack." - Hyundai does. You were wrong when you said it was a "Limited" warranty - it is not. The ONLY exclusion is for cars that are used as Taxis or Uber, etc. And you were wrong when you said it only applied to "Complete failure" of the battery pack, the exact wording is: The Lifetime Electric Battery Warranty ensures that if the lithium polymer battery fails, Hyundai will replace the battery and cover recycling costs for the old battery free of charge to the original owner.

What constitutes "fails" is up for the attorneys at a future point if necessary. But "fails" and "complete failure" are not the same thing. And it is obviously intentional that Hyundai did not include the word complete - especially given that they've used that term in the past, if they meant it to be used here - THEY WOULD HAVE USED IT.

And finally, you're wrong that a Hyundai statement in 2017 referring to PREVIOUS models could possibly in any way be expected to logically apply to a 2019 model.

PLEASE STOP. MOVE ON. We have enough misinformation in the world, you're adding to it and it's annoying. Thank you.
 
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and before you try it, I did not say normal degradation of the battery would result in free warranty replacement of the battery. I also didn't say it wouldn't.

My opinion on that is if the battery degrades something reasonable like 10% over 10 years, I would not expect Hyundai to just give someone a new battery b/c of that and no other problems. (though, an owner could make that claim if they wanted to try it, there's nothing in the warranty language that specifically excludes the degrading of the battery).

Personally, if my battery loses 10% in 10 years (for example) and everything else seems to be operating normally, I am very unlikely to claim that is a failure of the battery. I think it would be reasonable to call that "expected" in fact. On the other hand, if the pack loses, say, 30% over 10 years, I may very well ask them to replace it under warranty. I'm sure they wouldn't just say ok sure here ya go! And I'm sure I might have to fight with them a bit about it. But at least I'd have a case. If they had said the warranty covers complete failure only, I would not have a case. But... it doesn't say that.
 
Pushmi-Pullyu said:
If you read the following discussion thread and follow all the links to read the source documents, you'll probably come out knowing more than I do about the care and feeding of lithium-ion batteries, including the benefit of using the 80%/20% charge/discharge cycle:

"Why do Li-ion Batteries die? And how to improve the situation?"

Re Nissan removing the ability of the Leaf to charge to 80% to get a higher EPA range rating:

https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=17111

Re the controversy over charging to 100% to "balance" a li-ion battery pack:

https://web.archive.org/web/2015040...ives-comforting-answer-concerns-re-loss-range

Re charging to 100% to (supposedly) balance the pack only every 3 months:

https://www.teslarati.com/top-5-tips-to-maintaining-ev-battery/

* * * * *

If you want to see citations in support of more specific points I've made, or really any of the assertions I've made, Wildeyed, then please do post a follow-up request.

I try to learn all I can about EVs and I try to share what I know, but I've never claimed to be an expert on these subjects and I am occasionally corrected on my "facts" or assertions. But that's great when it happens; it means I learn something that day!
:)
Click to expand...
Thanks!
 
Pushmi-Pullyu said:
We can't "know" that, but this would mean that Hyundai has chosen to give their BEV something like 15% less range than it could have if they used more of the full capacity of the battery pack.

That's not impossible, but what BEV maker would voluntarily make its car that much less competitive, and why?
​
Click to expand...

So Kona owners can fully charge to 100% regularly without fear of destroying their battery pack.
Perhaps less competitive, but certainly less deceptive I would say.

If you should only charge a Tesla 3 Std+ to 80% SOC overnight, you will only have ~80% of the reported range the next morning.
If there are also severe range reductions in the winter, that can hurt.

The Teslerati may have no problems with this as they're used to bleeding edge technology. I guess they expect some quirks.
 
brulaz said:
So Kona owners can fully charge to 100% regularly without fear of destroying their battery pack.
Perhaps less competitive, but certainly less deceptive I would say.

If you should only charge a Tesla 3 Std+ to 80% SOC overnight, you will only have ~80% of the reported range the next morning.
If there are also severe range reductions in the winter, that can hurt.

The Teslerati may have no problems with this as they're used to bleeding edge technology. I guess they expect some quirks.
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Bunch of worry warts sorry to say that but just charge the thing and drive it. Life is to short to worry about it. Of course i don't care when I'm getting 496 kms per charge to 100%...LOL..
 
Underneath all this I think we can all agree that the most direct way to figure this out would be to pool resources together and collect BMS data (via like that odb) from the cars putting it all into a spreadsheet. At that point we can track SOC over time, and over distance driven, while also tracking the battery and environment temps. I am pretty sure we will at least be able to identify scenarios that encourage SOC (and in general battery capacity) to drop faster than others.

I don't know how much data will be needed but I am pretty sure 500km per car should start to yield something.





All this and we will probably find that charging on DC should be limited to 80% for time/money reasons, AC to 100% as needed (or as much as you want leaving it entirely to the BMS to prolong the life of the battery) -- but at least we will know which is worth it.
 
fiercely said:
Underneath all this I think we can all agree that the most direct way to figure this out would be to pool resources together and collect BMS data (via like that odb) from the cars putting it all into a spreadsheet. At that point we can track SOC over time, and over distance driven, while also tracking the battery and environment temps. I am pretty sure we will at least be able to identify scenarios that encourage SOC (and in general battery capacity) to drop faster than others.

I don't know how much data will be needed but I am pretty sure 500km per car should start to yield something.





All this and we will probably find that charging on DC should be limited to 80% for time/money reasons, AC to 100% as needed (or as much as you want leaving it entirely to the BMS to prolong the life of the battery) -- but at least we will know which is worth it.
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^^^
I think you meant obd (on board diagnostics) via the port .
On the list for me is Torque pro c/w codes for Kona EV, just haven't got around to it yet ,but sooner is better than later
 
electriceddy said:
^^^
I think you meant obd (on board diagnostics) via the port .
On the list for me is Torque pro c/w codes for Kona EV, just haven't got around to it yet ,but sooner is better than later
Click to expand...
I got the idea from TeslaBjorn, except I think if this type of data collection were expanded the Hyundai police will come for us. And yes, the ol' dirty bus reader ;p okok obd.

This guys talks about SOH of the battery in IONIQs (I think this applies here as well):

 
Pushmi-Pullyu said:
Please take your own advice.

Having won the argument, I feel no need to add to what I've already said on the subject.
​
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Yeah, you spoke about something you didn't know about as if you did, you then made snooty egotistical claims that you find it unlikely that Hyundai would give a lifetime battery warranty (WRONG) because nobody does that (WRONG) according to you, the great ill informed spewer of opinionated nonsense; you then Googled something and found a statement by Hyundai from 2017 that said previous models had a limited warranty, used your immense intelligence to conclude the word "previous" stated by Hyundai in 2017 somehow logically applied to a 2019 Kona Electric (WRONG), and finally, you repeatedly ignored the actual language of the actual warranty for the actual car we're discussing. And then claimed you won the argument (WRONG - and, frankly? Also painfully pathetic).

You were wrong, literally, about everything you spewed about the warranty - so at least you're consistent and were also wrong about having "won the argument" . By the way, just for the record, it's not about winning an argument for me. It's about being factually correct. It's about being informed before you speak, or, clearly indicating you're just giving an opinion on a matter. It's about admitting if you make a mistake and most of all perhaps learning from it. For example, I realize it was a mistake to try and be polite with you at first, that was a waste of time. You clearly are someone that does not need to have politeness wasted on them.

You know, opinions are fine in some cases. "The Ceramic Blue is the best color of the available Kona Electric choices" - right place for an opinion. Facts that are unquestionably true - not really the right place for an opinion. Let me put it to you this way. Even if every single person on the planet said "In my opinion the sun revolves around the earth" you know what? The earth still would revolve around the sun. Because that is a fact and your opinion on it is completely irrelevant. Likewise, the warranty for the battery being lifetime is a fact. The Warranty not being limited is a fact. The warranty not saying it applies only to complete failure of the battery - also a fact. Your opinion on those matters? Irrelevant. Your inability to comprehend this: Sad.

But back to learning from mistakes. I would hope that you would learn not be so snooty when someone mentions a fact like the Kona Electric comes with a lifetime battery warranty (how about instead of the short and rude "unlikely" you try something like: "I find that hard to believe, can you point me to something that shows they have a lifetime warranty on the battery?") - but that level of politeness is too much to expect from someone with an ego 5 times bigger than your brain, isn't it? I think we both know the answer to that. Everyone knows the answer to that.

Finally ... let's quote the Hyundai Kona Electric website one more time, which is all the proof I need that you were and continue to be wrong about everything you claimed about the warranty on the battery (to put it in your terms: this means I won the argument) :

The Lifetime Electric Battery Warranty applies to all U.S. 2019 model-year Kona Electrics. The Lifetime Electric Battery Warranty ensures that if the lithium polymer battery fails, Hyundai will replace the battery and cover recycling costs for the old battery free of charge to the original owner. ​
 
Mattsburgh said:
Yeah, you spoke about something you didn't know about as if you did, you then made snooty egotistical claims that you find it unlikely that Hyundai would give a lifetime battery warranty (WRONG) because nobody does that (WRONG) according to you, the great ill informed spewer of opinionated nonsense; you then Googled something and found a statement by Hyundai from 2017 that said previous models had a limited warranty, used your immense intelligence to conclude the word "previous" stated by Hyundai in 2017 somehow logically applied to a 2019 Kona Electric (WRONG), and finally, you repeatedly ignored the actual language of the actual warranty for the actual car we're discussing. And then claimed you won the argument (WRONG - and, frankly? Also painfully pathetic).

You were wrong, literally, about everything you spewed about the warranty - so at least you're consistent and were also wrong about having "won the argument" . By the way, just for the record, it's not about winning an argument for me. It's about being factually correct. It's about being informed before you speak, or, clearly indicating you're just giving an opinion on a matter. It's about admitting if you make a mistake and most of all perhaps learning from it. For example, I realize it was a mistake to try and be polite with you at first, that was a waste of time. You clearly are someone that does not need to have politeness wasted on them.

You know, opinions are fine in some cases. "The Ceramic Blue is the best color of the available Kona Electric choices" - right place for an opinion. Facts that are unquestionably true - not really the right place for an opinion. Let me put it to you this way. Even if every single person on the planet said "In my opinion the sun revolves around the earth" you know what? The earth still would revolve around the sun. Because that is a fact and your opinion on it is completely irrelevant. Likewise, the warranty for the battery being lifetime is a fact. The Warranty not being limited is a fact. The warranty not saying it applies only to complete failure of the battery - also a fact. Your opinion on those matters? Irrelevant. Your inability to comprehend this: Sad.

But back to learning from mistakes. I would hope that you would learn not be so snooty when someone mentions a fact like the Kona Electric comes with a lifetime battery warranty (how about instead of the short and rude "unlikely" you try something like: "I find that hard to believe, can you point me to something that shows they have a lifetime warranty on the battery?") - but that level of politeness is too much to expect from someone with an ego 5 times bigger than your brain, isn't it? I think we both know the answer to that. Everyone knows the answer to that.

Finally ... let's quote the Hyundai Kona Electric website one more time, which is all the proof I need that you were and continue to be wrong about everything you claimed about the warranty on the battery (to put it in your terms: this means I won the argument) :

The Lifetime Electric Battery Warranty applies to all U.S. 2019 model-year Kona Electrics. The Lifetime Electric Battery Warranty ensures that if the lithium polymer battery fails, Hyundai will replace the battery and cover recycling costs for the old battery free of charge to the original owner. ​
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Mattsburgh said:
"Unlikely. It's generally just an 8 year warranty, and it's also limited to a maximum mileage. I don't think any auto maker offers a "lifetime" or unlimited mileage warranty for a BEV battery pack."


That's not correct, it is lifetime. I wasn't asking if the warranty was lifetime (because I know it is) I was saying "it's a lifetime warranty so ultimately, even if we don't know what the perfect charging "rules" are, and something does happen to the battery pack, at least we have it under warranty, you know?"

A further comment I would add is that charging to 100% or not - my answer would change if Hyundai said things in the manual like "charging to 100% on a regular basis voids the warranty", but they don't instruct anything like that and as was mentioned above, in fact tell you to charge to specifically charge to 100% in some cases.

Ultimately I think others have hit on the main point, the battery pack is larger than 64 kWh. 100% isn't really 100%. Which is yet another reason I'll continue to charge to 100% on AC but generally only 80% on DC fast.

From the Hyundai website:


Lifetime Hybrid/Electric Battery Warranty**
(SEL) Standard
(Limited) Standard
(Ultimate) Standard
**The Lifetime Electric Battery Warranty applies to all U.S. 2019 model-year Kona Electrics. The Lifetime Electric Battery Warranty ensures that if the lithium polymer battery fails, Hyundai will replace the battery and cover recycling costs for the old battery free of charge to the original owner. The Lifetime Electric Battery Warranty excludes coverage for vehicles placed in commercial use (e.g., taxi, route delivery, rental, etc.).​
Click to expand...
Actually "lifetime warranty" is only USA, Canada is 8 Yrs/160,000 km defective materials (ie: bad cells or module) and 70% capacity
 
Wonder why Hyundai did that (different warranties for US and Canada). My two guesses would be they felt US buyers would be more concerned / hesitant, or, they expect the Canada cold to be more taxing to the batteries and didn't want to set themselves up for a very big expense in the future.

Anyway, thanks for the head's up, I'm in the US so of course I was on the US version of their website (and my warranty booklet says the same thing, obviously). It would be interesting to know what the warranty is in the UK, Norway, and South Korea, which I think are 3 other big markets for the car.
 
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