Got a parking violation while charging Clarity on EV parking

[Mariner91]

Would you change your mind of there is a specific sign and time limit for EV only? This EV spot is for charging only. I just took this picture on the way back from lunch.View attachment 4174

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On which, my stipulation that an official vehicle probably won't be ticketed if they parked there and not an EV? Probably!

Or that you were in a restricted area?

Think of it this way; a girl's dorm has a rule outside that says no boys allowed after 10 Pm; this is for the entire dorm area. Inside the dorm, a pool is accessible until 2 AM; this is specifically for the pool. Can a Boy be allowed in the pool at 1:30 AM? Can a Girl be in the pool at 2:30? Different rules that applies to different situations within the the dorm, but one is more comprehensive than the other. In your case, the restriction applies to the entire parking lot, including the EV station.

Forget that this was City Hall. Remember that those parking slots are for employees. If this was in the building that You worked at, and you Knew your parking lot was restricted to employees only (and in the cities, likely more restricted than just a sign), would you be surprised if a non employee got a ticket for parking inside (or as I said, get twed)?

But this isn't about your or my opinion. We live around the same area, and you probably know as much as I do how literal those parking signage are. They do it so there's no ambiguity on what needs to be followed at any given time or place. In your case, that sign did not say the rules applied to only to weekdays, for example, which means it's in effect even on a Sunday.

 

[ClarityKu]

So on Monday late afternoon, the Lieutenant Deurty retuned my called. He simply suggested just to challenge the ticket, send all the information which include the ChargePoint apps time/payment, and PlugShare 24/7 days Open advertisement, and pictures of the actual EV station signage. I asked him nicely what my chance to win the challenge, and his response was a bit non pleasing to me. Then I mention about Bill SB1000 65850.9.a. (Thanks Adzgan) He said that he isn't familiar with that and will do more research on it.

Tuesday 09:15 after my yucky kale juice drink started to kick in, I sent an email to the city manager, assistant CM, assistant to assistant CM, 3 city councilmembers, and City Clerk. My email is really simple, I just asked them if the EV charging station at city hall is open for public use when available or strictly just for El Cerrito employees. While I was waiting for the local government folks to response, I left a voice message at the head of the city environmental Green Energy, City Attorney, and Operations & Environmental Services Division. The head honcho at Green Energy left me a message stating that the EV station is open to public who needs it!

Tuesday 10:30, I called the Lieutenant Deurty, and told him that I paid $3.31 to the city, and I believed that is considered doing official business therefore the ticket should be dismissed. Once again, his response was just to challenge the ticket and let the court decide it. He affirmly said that once the ticket has been issued and entered to the systems, he can't just expunge it. In my rebuttal I told him that according to city officials the charging station is open to anybody. But once more time, he insisted that nothing he can do. An hour letter I got the replied from assistant city manager, she said the EV station is open to the public and near by residents use as well.
Bingo...so then I immediately replied back and spilled my gut out!! Told her I got a parking violation ticket and attached the ChargePoint and PlugShare screenshot info to her email. Her replied was: I am looking into this".

Around noon time, come to my surprised Lieutenant Deurty called me with completely different tone. He is willing to expunge my ticket with one condition that I must hand deliver it to him ASAP. He proudly said that this is as his appreciation to my many phone calls and emails that sent to those city officials!!! He claimed that the city code is ambiguous and open to one's interpretation, and I was indeed literally doing an official business by paying the ChargePoint network in city hall premises....... Wow...Whaaaa .....whaaat!!

In meantime, I received more emails encouragement replied, and all of them confirmed that the charging station is indeed open to public but must follow the time limit rule, 4hrs max. Even one of the city councilmember asked me if I would like to attend to their council meeting in April.

For now I am going to wait for what the assistant city manager is going to do to this matter. And wishing all the electrons shine upon the police officers or their parking enforcements...[emoji6]



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[MPower]

Yessssss! Good work! Woot!

 

[Robert_Alabama]

I too am proud of you. Nice job. I'd probably have just paid the ticket and never used the charger again and just stayed p.o. about the whole thing. You made it better for everyone that might need the charger.

 

[Pushmi-Pullyu]

A quick call will probably get it all fixed.

Sadly, ClarityKu's experience in dealing with the local government bureaucracy is about on a par with my own. Perhaps you've been much more lucky in dealing with government bureaucracy than the average person?

As they say: "You can't fight City Hall".

 

[ClarityKu]

I too am proud of you. Nice job. I'd probably have just paid the ticket and never used the charger again and just stayed p.o. about the whole thing. You made it better for everyone that might need the charger.

Thanks! My initial thought was the same if it was my first time charging there. Also it was Sunday afternoon, and close to the end of the month so the police might just need to meet their monthly quota....[emoji6]
You guys help a lot!!

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[AlanSqB]

Sadly, ClarityKu's experience in dealing with the local government bureaucracy is about on a par with my own. Perhaps you've been much more lucky in dealing with government bureaucracy than the average person?

As they say: "You can't fight City Hall".

That is a fair assessment. Up until recently I lived in a lovely city called Fort Collins which has a very professional police force and a service oriented city staff. My wife and I frequently referred to it as “Mayberry”.

My current city actually has city sponsored ChargePoint stations spread around for free public use. I’m kind of spoiled.

 

[Texas22Step]

That is a fair assessment. Up until recently I lived in a lovely city called Fort Collins which has a very professional police force and a service oriented city staff. My wife and I frequently referred to it as “Mayberry”.

My current city actually has city sponsored ChargePoint stations spread around for free public use. I’m kind of spoiled.

I too lived in Mayberry a long time ago (going to grad school there). Like you, my current city has city-sponsored charging stations around town that are for free public use -- even at the public library, city hall itself and some recreational centers too. Heck, even the local Honda dealer has two charging stations in their lot for public use for free. We call this city "Mt. Pilot."

 

[Sloanhoo]

At the very least, EC City Government needs a complaint about their lack of signage at the charging site.

I think you should show up at traffic court and fight it for two reasons: 1) It’s unfair and unreasonable in the legal sense, and 2) the $65 is likely to be significantly reduced by the judge if you show up to argue your case.

Here’s a legal theory you could use in traffic court: The City failed to give proper notice of the restriction, and they expected an unreasonable level of diligence on your part to uncover the restriction. Reasonableness and proper notice are pillars of our legal system because they are important parts of what constitutes “fairness.” If the station is for restricted use (like employees only or for those transacting City business only), then signs inside the building would not be adequate notice to the public outside. You could be reasonably expected to think the station was for public use because a) it is located in a public place, and b) they didn’t give proper notice that it wasn’t.

Whether it is reasonable for the City to restrict use of the station would turn on local law, who paid for it and whether it was “public” money, stated intent of the appropriate jurisdictional authority (which department in government controls siting of EV charging stations), etc.

Sounds like a good “pitchforks and torches” issue for the City Council to me. Goid luck!

 

[ClarityKu]

Apparently the assistant city manager worked behind the scene with the Lieutenant. So I dropped the ticket off at ECPD lobby with time-stamped at 13:59 on Friday, then followed up email to the Lieutenant at 14:28 asking if there is anything I should do to solve this matter. Exactly at 14:36, the Lt. Deurty (Delatorre) replied:
"There is nothing more you need to do at this point. I will handle the dismissal from here. Thank you".

I felt my civic duty work isn't complete. So I called/emailed ChargePoint and PlugShare support desk to kindly urge them to update their "misleading" information regarding this location and hours of operations from PUBLIC to PRIVATE or better yet work with the city to create a much better signage. As always, I will report back to you all the Clarity stakeholders....and I love my modern steel metallic Clarity!

Don't forget to buy an OEM Honda touch up paint. You will need it sooner or later....[emoji39]


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[Pushmi-Pullyu]

At the very least, EC City Government needs a complaint about their lack of signage at the charging site.

I think inadequate signage is chronic for EV charging sites. Even Tesla doesn't put signage up at their Destination Chargers (not to be confused with Superchargers), leading to a lot of argument about who is or isn't allowed to charge there.

We EV advocates really need to start advocating for proper signage, spelling out clearly that (1) charging stalls are for charging, not for parking, and (2) spelling out clearly who is or isn't allowed to charge there.

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[DucRider]

I think inadequate signage is chronic for EV charging sites. Even Tesla doesn't put signage up at their Destination Chargers (not to be confused with Superchargers), leading to a lot of argument about who is or isn't allowed to charge there.

The destination chargers are NOT Tesla's to control. The belong to the establishment where they are installed and that establishment is free to set whatever policy they wish regarding their use.
The only stipulation is that they be available for the public to use (but restrictions such as customers/guests are allowed).

The OP was very lucky to have the ticket dismissed. Trusting a crowd sourced app over clear signage posted at the entrance to the parking lot is questionable logic. Paying for charging in a city lot doesn't strike me as being there on "city business". And being the paid for by "public money" argument? Can you park in restricted government or post office lots? Waltz into City Hall at any hour you please? Hang out in the mayors office since it was paid for by public money? The use of the lot is restricted - the charging station is available (for a fee) for those that are parked in the lot in compliance with the posted signage. If Plugshare and/or other apps indicate differently, they certainly need to update their info to reflect the parking restrictions.

 

[sniwallof]

... Trusting a crowd sourced app over clear signage posted at the entrance to the parking lot is questionable logic. ...

The municipality itself probably made the posting at Plugshare. In the closing post, the OP indicated that the municipality intended the chargepoint charger to be available for public use. See post #42.

However, that may not always be the case, and the cautions are good ones for other small print charger traps.

I have an example consistent with your warning. At the Syracuse West Washington street garage, there was a comment (possibly Plugshare, I don't remember) that a 120V wall outlet was made available for a Chevy Volt L1 charge cord. Some weeks later, I asked at the office, and that attendant told me that if he saw an EV plugged into a garage outlet, he would call the police because charging an EV from a garage outlet is theft of electricity from the city of Syracuse! (all of 66 cents or so compared to the $8 parking charge, but most folks are EV (PHEV) ignorant)

Syracuse, NY has other problems too. There is another open parking lot with a row of chargepoint chargers. Even with the city parking fee, there was signage 2 hours max. Gross incompetence, as 2 hours is virtually useless for someone parking an EV or PHEV to go to work (at least with four hours, they could move it at lunch time). Last I saw, most chargers were ICEd anyway.

 

[Candice]

I'm not sure of the writer's intention regarding his or her comment about "...ignorant hybrid drivers...," but perhaps the comment was literally directed to pure hybrid vehicle owners with no plug-in at all (and thus have no business parking in a charging spot), not plug-in hybrid vehicle (PHEV) owners (such as our Clarity cars)?

I wondered that myself and tried not to read into it or let it bother me...but here I am, one month later, posting about it so it bothers me a bit but I park there anyway

 

[Pushmi-Pullyu]

The destination chargers are NOT Tesla's to control. The belong to the establishment where they are installed and that establishment is free to set whatever policy they wish regarding their use.

That is correct. Perhaps you are making the point that it should be up to the management of the establishment to put up such signage? If so then I agree; the problem is that they don't. I have yet to see any photo of any Tesla Destination Charger that has clear signage saying who the charging station belongs to, and who is (or isn't) allowed to use it. That's not to say none of them do, because obviously I haven't seen photos of every one, or even most of them. But it seems pretty clear that commonly, no signage is installed.

Tesla doesn't, and shouldn't, control who can or can't charge at a Destination Charger, but I submit they should suggest to the management that they provide clear signage, and provide samples for the management to choose from -- if they want it. I submit that Tesla should do that because the businesses aren't doing it themselves.

Just my opinion, of course.

​

 

[RogerB]

Why would they have an ordinance and put signs up on the entrance and exit in the first place if it was meant to be open to the public? The ordinance applies to the parking facility in general so it makes sense that the sign is placed at the entrance. Subsequent signage on the charger is unnecessary since it is assumed that you were following the ordinance in place regarding parking in the facility in the first place.

Apparently I'm in the minority, but people need to own up when they don't follow the rules. Ignorance of the rules does not provide indemnification from them. I'm all for getting the rules changed when appropriate, but your "civic duty" cost hundreds of dollars of government officials' time on what was a wild goose chase to save you $65. More correctly stated, your civic duty would be to participate in the proper methods of public input to attempt to get the rules changed.

On a general note, I would laugh if I was a government official and someone attempted to use a crowd-sourced app for any sort of justification. That's like using Wikipedia as a reference. You'd also not get very far claiming that charging constitutes official city business. One would need to interact with a city official (either directly or indirectly (drop off payment of a fine, an application, etc.) to constitute official city business. There might even be a definition on the books somewhere. I'd wager a healthy amount that EV charging is not covered.

 

[MPower]

As a former city council member, I totally support what the OP did. The ordinance/signage is unclear as it applies to the charging station. The information on the ChargePoint app is supplied by the owner of the charging station, the City. If no one draws the ambiguity to the City's attention, it cannot be dealt with. Now that the City knows that there is a problem, it can fix the signage and/or ordinance to make it clear to the public whether or not the charging station is generally available or limited. If you read #42 in this thread, you will see that City official themselves are not of one mind what the policy for the use of the charger is or should be.

The OP has done a public service. Good government officials do not blow off problems raised by their constituents. They are responsive. Well done @ClarityKu

 

[RogerB]

As a former city council member, I totally support what the OP did. The ordinance/signage is unclear as it applies to the charging station. The information on the ChargePoint app is supplied by the owner of the charging station, the City. If no one draws the ambiguity to the City's attention, it cannot be dealt with. Now that the City knows that there is a problem, it can fix the signage and/or ordinance to make it clear to the public whether or not the charging station is generally available or limited. If you read #42 in this thread, you will see that City official themselves are not of one mind what the policy for the use of the charger is or should be.

The OP has done a public service. Good government officials do not blow off problems raised by their constituents. They are responsive. Well done @ClarityKu

I couldn't disagree more. The ordinance/signage is perfectly clear and posted in the proper location. There is no ambiguity to correct. If you want the ordinance changed, that's a different matter entirely.

Kowtowing to the squeakiest wheel is the complete opposite of a public service. The police officer is the one that should be commended in this situation for knowing the rules. Asking as many people as possible to try to find one unfamiliar with the rules to try to get the answer the OP wanted is entitled behavior and a waste of government money.

The proper way to handle this would have been to pay the fine and get PlugShare and CharePoint to correctly note that the facility is restricted to employees and those with official city business.

 

[MPower]

As a former city official, I feel very strongly about this issue. The ordinance and signage are not clear as they apply to this situation.

Moreover, the responsibility for the ChargePoint listing and basic description is the City's, which provided the information. There was nothing to prevent them from noting any limitations on usage in the listing. Instead the listing notes only the cost of charging, which would suggest that if you are willing to pay up you can charge.

The language of the ordinance puts limitations on the use of area for parking, restricting it to employees and folks doing business with the City. OP was doing business. He was buying electricity.

We do not know if OP was the squeekiest wheel or whether he was the only person to receive a ticket for using the charging station. In any case it has provided an oportunity for the City to clarify its policy on the charger use.

Clearly, we have disagree about the appropriate relationship between citizens and their government so I guess we will just have to agree to differ.

 

[sniwallof]

I couldn't disagree more. The ordinance/signage is perfectly clear and posted in the proper location. There is no ambiguity to correct. If you want the ordinance changed, that's a different matter entirely.

Kowtowing to the squeakiest wheel is the complete opposite of a public service. The police officer is the one that should be commended in this situation for knowing the rules. Asking as many people as possible to try to find one unfamiliar with the rules to try to get the answer the OP wanted is entitled behavior and a waste of government money.

The proper way to handle this would have been to pay the fine and get PlugShare and CharePoint to correctly note that the facility is restricted to employees and those with official city business.

At least if any of the chargepoint money goes to El Cerrito, the OP was certainly doing official business (as invited by El Cerrito) with the municipality. Even if no money goes to El Cerrito, the OP was responding to a web published invitation to use the charger, by El Cerrito. See also: post #35 on "city business". I actually like that argument the best of the entire thread. Once past the official business hurdle, there is no violation, and EV charging is in complete compliance with both the municipal code and the signage.

I think that 4 hours or less is problematic for a BEV such as a Chevy Bolt on L2 (8+ hours), which probably should be allowed overnight or off hours, but that is a different question for another day.