Fluoride-ion battery
- Thread starter MNSteve
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Bring on the tooth-decay/battery-decay jokes.
Where's GM in this story? Weren't Honda and GM now working together on BEVs?
I've written letters to Honda begging the company to bring the Urban EV to North America. I did get a reply promising that there would be a BEV for North America, but that the Urban EV was not that car.
Last week, the day after Honda introduced its new 2nd-largest SUV, the Passport, those giants started rolling off the assembly line. Now that gas is selling at a ridiculous $2.30/gallon, SUV sales will remain strong and I don't have much hope the 153-inch Urban EV will ever show up on these shores. Honda's dealers wouldn't know how to sell them if they did show up here.
Where's GM in this story? Weren't Honda and GM now working together on BEVs?
I've written letters to Honda begging the company to bring the Urban EV to North America. I did get a reply promising that there would be a BEV for North America, but that the Urban EV was not that car.
Last week, the day after Honda introduced its new 2nd-largest SUV, the Passport, those giants started rolling off the assembly line. Now that gas is selling at a ridiculous $2.30/gallon, SUV sales will remain strong and I don't have much hope the 153-inch Urban EV will ever show up on these shores. Honda's dealers wouldn't know how to sell them if they did show up here.
PHEV Newbie
Well-Known Member
That announcement is the real deal. The research paper is published in Science, the most prestigious and rigorous research journal in existence. The authors are from CalTech, the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, and Honda. Often "breakthroughs" like this are announced and publicized in the press but you dig a bit and find that the research journal is third or fourth tier and the authors are from universities you've never heard of before. Invariably, those reports were based on faulty or fraudulent data. All the authors here are from the most elite institutions and that Honda is also involved, it is likely that you'll see this technology commercialized.
New battery tech will come out, though it may be 7 to 10 years away. Lithium ion has too many temperature issues especially for cold weather, so it probably has another 15 to 20 years before new designs replace it.
MNSteve
Well-Known Member
Agreed. The time frame depends on a number of factors that relate to the health of the business segment that will use the technology. I just read that the current administration plans to end the tax subsidy for buying PHEVs, and when you mix that with current low gas prices, the short term motivation to invest money in this technology is reduced. Unless corporations are taking a long-term view, they're unlikely to allocate much of their limited funds to this segment.
I found InsideEVs' article about Honda and GM doing the battery thing together. However no mention of GM in The Drive's article about the new fluoride-ion battery. It must be scary for Honda to contemplate bailing out of its battery relationship with Panasonic, so they're covering as many bases as possible.
The new Honda/Cal-Tech/NASA technology has supposedly brought the operating temperature of these fluoride-ion batteries down from 150 C (302 F) to "room temperature." Researchers will have to make the battery work at a much lower temperature for people in the "frozen northland" (eg. @MNSteve).
The new Honda/Cal-Tech/NASA technology has supposedly brought the operating temperature of these fluoride-ion batteries down from 150 C (302 F) to "room temperature." Researchers will have to make the battery work at a much lower temperature for people in the "frozen northland" (eg. @MNSteve).
Pushmi-Pullyu
Well-Known Member
I usually post cautionary comments to threads like this, because of the literally hundreds of breathless, wide-eyed announcements about breakthru battery tech coming from battery tech startups and university research groups over the past decade. Such announcements routinely ignore all sorts of real-world constraints, such as longevity or cost or difficulties in manufacturing, and almost absolutely never lead to any commercial product.
But Wow! This looks like it might be the real deal. I'll be eagerly looking for reports on the development of this tech. When a tech is being co-developed by CalTech and JPL labs... that gets your attention. The fact that the research paper is published in a prestigious peer-reviewed journal does, too.
But Wow! This looks like it might be the real deal. I'll be eagerly looking for reports on the development of this tech. When a tech is being co-developed by CalTech and JPL labs... that gets your attention. The fact that the research paper is published in a prestigious peer-reviewed journal does, too.
Notice something about this news:
Fluoride-ion battery technologies have been going back for at least 7 years based on early paper I found quickly. Here, this Fluoride-ion "Breakthrough" was published in 2011. http://www.kit.edu/kit/english/pi_2011_8281.php This research indicated high temperatures were required to make it work.
Jump forward to today, 7 years since the breakthrough article was posted and they have solved the temperature issue, but they still say it isn't ready for commercialization. It is possible they might never commercialize it, but the science is there for the battery and for it to operate at normal temperature (instead of high temperature).
It is more promising than most of those small labs with their miracle batteries as it has already gone through a lot of development. As mentioned, the big guns are reporting this research and it has obviously progressed in the last 7 years.
Fluoride-ion battery technologies have been going back for at least 7 years based on early paper I found quickly. Here, this Fluoride-ion "Breakthrough" was published in 2011. http://www.kit.edu/kit/english/pi_2011_8281.php This research indicated high temperatures were required to make it work.
Jump forward to today, 7 years since the breakthrough article was posted and they have solved the temperature issue, but they still say it isn't ready for commercialization. It is possible they might never commercialize it, but the science is there for the battery and for it to operate at normal temperature (instead of high temperature).
It is more promising than most of those small labs with their miracle batteries as it has already gone through a lot of development. As mentioned, the big guns are reporting this research and it has obviously progressed in the last 7 years.
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Pushmi-Pullyu
Well-Known Member
Yes, it would be a mistake to think there are not significant hurdles to overcome, and it might go nowhere. But it looks to me like there is a very real possibility that this might result in a genuine breakthru in EV batteries, in a way which most such announcements don't.
neal adkins
Active Member
I recently read an article about the reasons chevorlet terminated the volt. One reason the stood out was the cramped back seat. It also mentioned America's appetite for larger suv crossovers. Hence the small Honda ev isn't likely.
Pushmi-Pullyu
Well-Known Member
Hmmm, well that's one of the reasons the Volt didn't sell better. I was astonished at how small the Volt is when I first saw it in person. But that's not really why GM stopped making its only PHEV. If GM was really interested in making and selling compelling plug-in EVs, then it would have made the Volt larger in later model years, and it would have put a Voltec powertrain into larger cars.
No, the reason why GM stopped making the Volt is that it's not making much profit for them, but that's a mostly self-inflicted wound, since they refused to make changes to the car which would have made it sell better.
Honda's bread-and-butter in the US certainly lies with their SUVs. So you're probably right. However, Honda surprises once in a while--check out the Clarity PHEV, which is not making much money (if not negative money) for Honda.
MNSteve
Well-Known Member
I think that the impending demise of the $7500 tax credit, based on sales numbers, was a factor. Tesla has blown through the sales quota but the Tesla market is different than the Volt market, and the tax credit is much more important to potential buyers of the Volt. If we lose the tax credit for the Clarity it will have a significant impact on sales.
Pushmi-Pullyu
Well-Known Member
Yes. I don't know that the coming (in 2nd quarter 2019) expiration of GM's segment of the federal tax credit was a deciding factor, but it surely was a contributing one.
To some extent, Tesla can offset the end of the U.S. federal tax credit by selling more cars overseas, especially the Model 3 in Europe. GM lost their European market decades ago, and they haven't made any serious attempt to re-enter that market.
That is just one of several major mistakes that GM has made in the past few decades. GM ought to start changing that situation immediately by creating a new badge for plug-in EVs to be sold in Europe, but that doesn't seem to be part of their plans.