EVSE 240v recommendations

[Breezy]

I've used the OEM level 1 charger since I bought my 2018 Clarity (I'm original owner). Having some work done on the house, so I want to add a 240v charger. Ideas for the best solution that will work for my Clarity and not be obsolete in near future for a new car? Love my Clarity--not thinking of replacing it now. But, we'll see when that no longer makes sense and there really are good alternatives.

Anything that will work as one of those super-fast chargers that newer EVs use as well as work for Clarity?

I'm in US Northeast, if that matters. Thank you!

 

[Landshark]

We’ve been using a Grizzle Level 2 EVSE for several years. Originally with the Clarity, now with a Jeep 4xe. I believe it can charge at up to 40A. No smart features, no app, no issues. It is allegedly made in Canada. Assembled would be more accurate since the cable says Made in China.

 

[ClarityDoc]

We've had a hardwired ChargePoint 32A level 2 EVSE with 25 foot cord for 6 years with no troubles, mounted on the outside wall of our house next to parking pad/driveway. With tax incentive at the time it was a bargain. Solid device, decent app. Works well with our newer Kia EV. We don't really need faster charging.

 

[petteyg359]

Anything that will work as one of those super-fast chargers that newer EVs use as well as work for Clarity?

No, first because the Clarity does not support any DC fast charging mechanism, and second because DC fast chargers are very much not purchasable at the consumer level. 240v@32A may be much faster than 120v@12A, but it's not "fast" charging. Still takes hours even for the relatively small battery in our PHEVs.

 

[Dan Albrich]

So in my area (Western Oregon) if you tell an electrician you want a EV charger connected, you'll get quotes that start over $1000. So I asked to add a father-in-law trailer plug near my panel (NEMA 14-50) like you see in campgrounds. Quote was $200 installed. I then bought a "travel" EVSE on Amazon for another $200. The EVSE i have is NEMA 14-50 on one side of course, then J1772 on the car side. My connection is 50 amps which means I can use 40 amps. My EVSE is 40 amp. The Clarity charger is ~30amps, but it takes the power it needs. My actual EVSE is no-name I've ever heard of, and has no wifi or data. It's a dumb charger but has worked fine for the years I've had it.

It's possible so I'm told to get an 80amp charger at home. That use-case would permit more trips per day if you really drive around a lot during the day, or faster charging between trips-- you get the idea. But all I need is enough range when i sleep, and I think I already have that with 40amp EVSE. i.e. plug in at bed time, let charge for 8 hours. If not full, the EV will have enough range for the next day. That's the only metric I care.

BTW- I don't own an EV, just Clarity. So the setup I have charges Clarity from zero to full in say 2.5 hours. And if I have 30 or more minutes at home between trips it is worth it to plug in to get some more range.

 

[bpratt]

I purchased my 2018 Clarity the last week of December 2017. I immediately wired my garage for 240 volts. When I checked the electrical specs for home wiring (which I assume are national specs) I found the maximum individual circuit breaker allowed in a residential home is 80 amps. So I ran #4 wire to the garage (which will support up to 80 amps) and connected it to a 50 amp circuit breaker. I assumed in the future I could replace the 50 amp with an 80 amp for a future electric car. Later I found out the Clarity will only use 30 amps max so I purchased a 40 amp charging cord. I also put a meter on the line in the garage so I could see how much current the car was drawing and it gives me the ability to accurately check miles per kwh. In the summer not using the heater but using the AC and driving mostly in town under 45 mph, I can average about 4.3 miles per kwh. That gives me slightly over 60 miles on a full charge.
I don't know if there are electric vehicles currently being sold the will use up to 80 amps (probably only 72 max on an 80 amp breaker)

 

[Robert_Alabama]

The following article describes a few cars that can charge at 80A (100A circuit).
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a42691039/ev-charging-level-2-porsche-wall-connector/
A lot of EVs have a maximum level 2 charging rate of 48A. 48A requires a 60A circuit and should be hardwired as largest 240V recepticle is rated 50A (40A continuous). BTW, an 80 A circuit would support charging at 64A (80% of circuit rating). I'd also recommend that you make sure that you have adequate panel capacity (and entrance wire capacity) to include the added charging load in the garage as the additional charging load can overload the panel, especially if any other heavy loads are present (electrical ranges, heating, dryer, etc)... In other words, just because you have the space to add a 240V breaker in the panel, it doesn't mean it is safe to do so. You should do a complete assessment of the loading on the panel...

 

[NorCalPete]

I don't know if there are electric vehicles currently being sold the will use up to 80 amps (probably only 72 max on an 80 amp breaker)

I'm not an electrician, but my understanding is that circuit breakers should not be loaded to exceed 80 percent of their current rating where, in normal operation, the load will continue for 3 hours or more. If that's correct, then an 80 amp circuit breaker could run, at most, a 64 amp EVSE.

I may add a second level 2 EVSE to my home, and am considering Emporia's hardwired version which can run 48 amps max. If I go that route, I'll add a new 60 amp circuit running 4 gauge wire.

(@Robert_Alabama: you beat me to the post.)

 

[ENirogus]

My Niro will add 10 miles per hour connected to a 20 amp 240 circuit
I constantly see people adding large current charging circuits
Unless you have a low efficiency EV[Hummer et al] and a long commute, I cannot see why you would spend the money
Assume your car is going to be plugged in 8 hours while you sleep
Do the math
My car will add 80 miles in 8 hours, 140 in the 14 it is actually plugged in if it is plugged in every day.
Many people drive 80+ miles a day, most do not.

With a Clarity, is there a point to charging it in less than 5 hours?
Perhaps there is
I am simply advising not to spend money on something you have no use for.

 

[NorCalPete]

With a Clarity, is there a point to charging it in less than 5 hours?

We currently have two Claritys and four drivers, and often need both cars fully charged in the morning. If I end up getting a Ramcharger, adding a second EVSE may be more convenient than three cars sharing a single one.

 

[Landshark]

I found the maximum individual circuit breaker allowed in a residential home is 80 amps. So I ran #4 wire to the garage (which will support up to 80 amps) and connected it to a 50 amp circuit breaker.

FWIW: We had a 90A breaker in a previous house for heat strips on an air handler. I recently had a 100A breaker installed by a licensed electrician in the main panel of our house for a sub-panel in a pole barn. Also, wire is available in copper and aluminum, each with different amp ratings. There are also sub-types of each metal that have different ratings as well. As mentioned previously, maximum continuous load is 80% of the wire and breaker rating.

In other words, just because you have the space to add a 240V breaker in the panel, it doesn't mean it is safe to do so. You should do a complete assessment of the loading on the panel...

Typically, the sum of all breaker ratings exceeds the rating of the main breaker. Our 200A panel has 240V breakers that total 180A and 120V breakers that total 545A. The 100A sub-panel has 150A of 240V breakers and about 100A of 120V breakers. Most of the 15A circuits in the house provide power to LED lights that wouldn’t draw 1A per circuit if they were all turned on. The house is never going to draw 200A. I’d be hard pressed to max out the pole barn panel even if there was a car charging, the RV was plugged in with both air conditioners and the battery charger running, add a table saw and an air compressor and there’d still be capacity for more. It could be done. It just isn’t likely.

 

[rodeknyt]

Also, wire is available in copper and aluminum

I would steer clear of aluminum wiring. Back in the early '80s, aluminum was used extensively in new home construction in SoCal (cheaper than copper) and caused so many problems. I don't know what the issue was; perhaps aluminum heats up more easily than copper and should have been a larger gauge. Breakers kept tripping under normal loads.

We finally reached the point of having the wiring to our A/C compressor replaced using copper (on the exterior of the house) so we actually could use the system during the summer. Needless to say, aluminum fell out of favor about as quickly as it came into vogue and builders stopped using it by the mid-'80s.

 

[Robert_Alabama]

Typically, the sum of all breaker ratings exceeds the rating of the main breaker. Our 200A panel has 240V breakers that total 180A and 120V breakers that total 545A. The 100A sub-panel has 150A of 240V breakers and about 100A of 120V breakers. Most of the 15A circuits in the house provide power to LED lights that wouldn’t draw 1A per circuit if they were all turned on. The house is never going to draw 200A. I’d be hard pressed to max out the pole barn panel even if there was a car charging, the RV was plugged in with both air conditioners and the battery charger running, add a table saw and an air compressor and there’d still be capacity for more. It could be done. It just isn’t likely.

i am not a licensed or certified electrician, so take this as just what I interpret from what I have read, but there appear to be 3 general methods for determining panel loading. Also, keep in mind that the main breaker also should have a 20% margin on it with all calculated continuous load, just like the 20% margin on individual breakers. One method is adding up the loads of all the appliances, lights, heaters, etc on all the circuits in the panel. This can be a little painful if there are multiple panels in the house, but it can be the easiest way to make sure of what is connected to the panel. This method is nice as you can check to make sure that the 120 loads are essentially balanced on each side as you do the calculations. Again, you should make sure that there is a 20% margin between the sum of all connected loads and the amperage of the main (the main should support all loads on for a continuous amount of time without overloading). Another is to put a 15 minute measurement ammeter on each of the hot legs of the main for a lengthly period of time (at least a month in the time period where load is expected to be highest), recording the maximum amperage and increasing that by 25% and then adding the amps for the circuit that is to be added, then making sure that is below the amperage rating of the main. A final most conservative way (which as @Landshark says, is likely to fail) is to add all circuits together and make sure that is less than the amperage of the main breaker. For the 120V circuits, I think it is probably ok to assume that the load is balanced on each side (adding all the 120V circuits together and dividing by two). Again, I am not a licensed electrician, but this is my understanding of the 3 general ways to determine panel loading. Consulting a licensed electrician would be advisable when there is any doubt about the total connected load on the panel exceeding the panel rating if all loads are simultaneously turned on.

 

[ENirogus]

There is no reason by code that the main has to be larger than the sum of the breakers.
These things are not related.
Breakers protect the wiring, they do not define the load

As an example, figure what your electric bill would be if you actually loaded your panel to the main breaker loading at 80 percent

between $35000 and $50000 a month

Is that your electric bill?

 

[Landshark]

A final most conservative way (which as @Landshark says, is likely to fail) is to add all circuits together and make sure that is less than the amperage of the main breaker.

I may have been misinterpreted, as I did not say that any method of determining panel loading would be likely to fail. In fact, I made no suggestion at all on how to determine panel loading. I simply provided some information about the main-panel in our home and sub-panel in the pole barn. Had I made the “most conservative” suggestion as described above, I would not have said that it “is likely to fail”. Maybe “is” was a typo, however, I didn’t say that the method isn’t likely to fail either. To clarify what I said, the sub-panel in the pole barn is unlikely to become overloaded even though the sum of the individual breakers exceeds the rating of the main breaker. The same principle applies to the main panel in the house.

What is likely, is that the 10kVa transformer that services our home and one neighbor will fail this summer when we’re both running our air conditioners, etc, and I’m charging a car. Initially I had inquired with the power company about running a separate service to the pole barn from the power pole with the 10K transformer and was told that I would need to pay $6000 to upgrade to a 25K transformer. Our electrician advised bringing power from the house via underground conduit that was in place to service the old garage and he was able to pull wire for the 100A panel. Now, if the transformer fails, the power company will replace it at their cost. Which should be done anyway, as it is sub-standard, given that every other transformer is 25K and there is a push to electrify homes. They just won’t do it until it fails.

In actual use, all the loads will not be applied simultaneously or continuously. Kitchen appliances such as a microwave, toaster, garbage disposal or tea kettle are on for just a few minutes at a time. A dishwasher runs for about an hour and refrigerators cycle off and on. Our garbage disposal is on a dedicated circuit, however, it may only be in operation for 5 seconds once or twice a day. Our gas range and hood are on 15A circuit, but the fans in both draw less than 5A. In many cases 14ga wire and a 15A breaker is overkill. It’s just the default minimum that allows for a 1500w heater to be plugged in on just about any circuit.

Were I inclined to recommend a method for determining appropriate panel loading, it would be to implement the rare commodities of logic and common sense. I’d also caution against attempting to gain literacy on the subject through the use of AI generated sources, which are becoming more prevalent.

 

[Robert_Alabama]

I may have been misinterpreted, as I did not say that any method of determining panel loading would be likely to fail.

Typically, the sum of all breaker ratings exceeds the rating of the main breaker.

The sum of all breaker ratings is one method of determining the panel loading. You may not have known it was one of the methods, but your statement indicates that the sum is typically more which to me means likely to exceed.

Were I inclined to recommend a method for determining appropriate panel loading, it would be to implement the rare commodities of logic and common sense. I’d also caution against attempting to gain literacy on the subject through the use of AI generated sources, which are becoming more prevalent.

Any method you would recommend that isn't one accepted by the electric code governing the region is of little use if you are ever needing to pass an electrical inspection. As to the jab of use of AI to attempt to gain literacy on this subject, you are one piece of work to assume my level of understanding of electrical code or how I may have attempted to gain it. I said I wasn't a licensed electrician, not that I knew nothing about the topic.

 

[ENirogus]

Another clue:
A standard 200 amp panel has at least 20 240v breakers
The lowest commonly available breaker is 15 amps
That is 300 amps
Yet another point:
what size wire and breaker do you install for a 22 amp fixed load?
30 amp, 10 ga wire.
A 9k mini split might only draw 6 amps full load

As I stated before, the breakers protect the wire, they do not define the load.
If you are going 'fully electric' with heat pumps and an EV, it might make sense to time your charging at night, and also limit charging current unless you have a specific reason to charge more quickly

 

[ENirogus]

>>between $35000 and $50000 a month<<
Did my math wrong, $6000 to $9000, I was in a hurry..
With an EV you are probably averaging less than 10 percent of your max load

 

[Landshark]

You may not have known it was one of the methods, but your statement indicates that the sum is typically more which to me means likely to exceed.

The fact that the sum of the individual breakers may exceed the rating of the main breaker does not mean that the load is likely exceed the rating of the main breaker.

Any method you would recommend that isn't one accepted by the electric code governing the region is of little use if you are ever needing to pass an electrical inspection. As to the jab of use of AI to attempt to gain literacy on this subject, you are one piece of work to assume my level of understanding of electrical code or how I may have attempted to gain it. I said I wasn't a licensed electrician, not that I knew nothing about the topic.

As much as I’m tempted to take this back to your original misinterpretation and misstatement about what I said before addressing your current misinterpretations, I’m inclined to believe that it would not lead to a productive conversation. I attempted to clarify exactly what I said. I made no recommendation on how to determine panel loading, nor did I say that any method was “likely to fail” as you claimed I did. I don’t know how to be more clear about what I said.

You allowed yourself to become agitated over my response and resorted to personal attacks. Why did you take a general statement cautioning against using AI sources as such an assumption?

 

[Landshark]

I'm not an electrician, but my understanding is that circuit breakers should not be loaded to exceed 80 percent of their current rating where, in normal operation, the load will continue for 3 hours or more. If that's correct, then an 80 amp circuit breaker could run, at most, a 64 amp EVSE.

This is correct as far as following NEC rules for a dedicated circuit with a known load. Keep in mind, however, that an 80A circuit breaker can provide 80A continuously. Heat is what trips a breaker, outside of a short circuit, which will trip a breaker immediately. Trip curves demonstrate that a CB operating at 100% of its rated capacity, will trip at about the 3 hour mark at an ambient air temperature of 40C. The 80% guidance, minimizes nuisance tripping.

We frequently located heat sensitive electrical equipment in heavily air conditioned rooms in order to maximize output and reduce downtime to redistribute loads. This is a common practice. In residential installations, a circuit breaker operating near its rated capacity in a service panel located on a south facing exterior wall in Arizona in August, would likely trip in less time than a CB located on a north facing wall in Minnesota in January operating under the same load.

I agree 100% that an 80A breaker should be installed in a dedicated circuit for a 64A EVSE. That said, an 80A breaker can provide more than 64A for more than 3 hours and could do so when installed as a breaker for a sub-panel that is wired in compliance with all NEC Codes.