Is running EV charging stations a legitimate business?

[Keith Smith]

I'm mixed on the USB-C. Mostly because it isn't that great of a connector. Actually USB-1 was engineered originally to replace RS-232C for things like mice and keyboards, and dot matrix printers. Then technology improved, and it kept getting faster, and faster 1.1, 1.2, ... Then some idiot put a CD-ROM drive on it, so, 2.0, 2.1 . . . scanners and laser printers, a different idiot decided to make the plug smaller and made mini-usb, then the micro-usb debacle, let's shove 10A down a connector the size of a human hair. , talk about a crappy connector, but in reality the technology was moving faster than the hardware and connectors. The spade lug of Apple's lightning was vastly better than micro-usb, and really USB-C, but they were so sue happy and refused to open it, so from that perspective they shot themselves in the foot. I shant shed many tears for Apple, but the problem with the heavy handed government mandating USB-C is now the EU is stuck with it FOREVER! And the deficiencies of the design are starting to show as we push it from 10 to 20 to 40Ghz and beyond, and then 20W, 40W, 80W, .... Aww sh*t! The engineers have managed to do a decent job of working around the technical challenges, but if something better comes along the EU is going to have to pass some legislation to use it. Sounds dumb to me.

And USB 3.x is just fine on an 'A' connector. Power is a non issue with the larger contacts, YMMV. USB is now faster than ethernet on copper. USB-C is still flakey on a dock.

Tesla offered up free access to NACS way back, but nobody wanted to use it because Tesla "controlled the standard". Which honestly probably would be better than J3400 and a committee, but they caved to get the adoption, so in the end it all worked out, without a bunch of bureaucrats dictating. Which I might note is now going to cost more money to replace the cabling on all the CCS garbage. I might also note I don't care for the Tesla vehicles, but some people don't like steak, so it's just a preference. Their engineering has been very good, and NACS/J3400 will be very good for the industry as a whole.

If the government can facilitate standards with incentives I can live with it.

And to continue circle back around to charging, I really do think NACS/J3400 will take over in places that rolled out CCS2 and other 3-phase capable plugs because frankly like USB-C there is no reason you can't have an actual DC charger in your house that charges your car from whatever type of AC source you may have. AC charging was a work-around in the first place so people wouldn't have to buy an actual charger you just put it in the car. I'd make a bet that in 10 years, you won't really see any L2 chargers, as the cost of the components to do DC charging drops, and the units become mass-produced commodities. But of course you have those pesky government regs in some places that will make it more difficult to change but it will be fun to see what happens.

 

[OneEV]

How? Adding technical details works best.

Bob Wilson

REALLY BOB? Serious question ? When 2 vehicles are connected t the same charger(not necessairly the same dispenser) then power is split. It's early, are you saying you never knew that?

 

[bwilson4web]

REALLY BOB? Serious question ? When 2 vehicles are connected t the same charger(not necessairly the same dispenser) then power is split. It's early, are you saying you never knew that?

Actually I was wondering if you knew:

• V2 Superchargers, 150 kW, share the power between adjacent lanes. So we always park with an empty lane between each car unless there are more Teslas, over 50% usage. Even sharing, the worst case, 75 kW for both cars. As one goes below a 75 kW rate, the other gets the extra.
• V3 Superchargers, 250 kW, do not share power between lanes. Since my Model 3 has a peak charge rate of 178 kW that quickly ramps down, neither the V2 nor V3 have led to my charging problems.
• Tesla upgraded the earlier, V1 Superchargers, 120 kW, with 150 kW V2 stalls.

With 137,000 miles and 5 years, the SuperCharger network has grown faster than my expected battery degradation, ~11%. However, I've also added CCS-1 charging to my Tesla so I can also use the more expensive, 65 kW, shared, dual headed, ChargePoint stations. So I still shake my head at the CHAdeMO cables.

My town EV, a 2017 BMW i3-REx, has a maximum charge rate of 50 kW. No need to add a CCS-1 to Tesla adapter as the range extender keeps the car at 70 mph, 24x7.

Bob Wilson

 

[OneEV]

Actually I was wondering if you knew:

• V2 Superchargers, 150 kW, share the power between adjacent lanes. So we always park with an empty lane between each car unless there are more Teslas, over 50% usage. Even sharing, the worst case, 75 kW for both cars. As one goes below a 75 kW rate, the other gets the extra.
• V3 Superchargers, 250 kW, do not share power between lanes. Since my Model 3 has a peak charge rate of 178 kW that quickly ramps down, neither the V2 nor V3 have led to my charging problems.
• Tesla upgraded the earlier, V1 Superchargers, 120 kW, with 150 kW V2 stalls.

With 137,000 miles and 5 years, the SuperCharger network has grown faster than my expected battery degradation, ~11%. However, I've also added CCS-1 charging to my Tesla so I can also use the more expensive, 65 kW, shared, dual headed, ChargePoint stations. So I still shake my head at the CHAdeMO cables.

My town EV, a 2017 BMW i3-REx, has a maximum charge rate of 50 kW. No need to add a CCS-1 to Tesla adapter as the range extender keeps the car at 70 mph, 24x7.

Bob Wilson

what empty lane ! lol ,

anyway , yes thats how it works .


My main issue comes back to al these newwer evs needing more power, 250,350 500 ..

and here is how that relates to the OPs topic ..Are charging stations Legitimate business.. well NO , if we are asking can they make a profit. Demand Charges just kill any chance of for a charging station (busy stations , you need the volume of sales as well) but the volume of vehices just make demand charges worse ..

Demand charges are a typical element of commercial and industrial electric service rates, charging consumers for the peak amount of power (kW) used at one time, per billing cycle. This provides ESPs a way “to recover some of the costs associated with providing sufficient electricity generation and distribution capacity to their customers.”1 Demand charges are intended to help ESPs keep power systems appropriately sized, efficient, and more affordable for all consumers. However, DCFC infrastructure has relatively unique power demands, with high power capacity required for fast charging, but relatively small amounts of energy consumed per charge. These demand charges are one element that may prevent DCFC station hosts from earning a profit from EV charging services. This assessment examines the scale and impact of demand charges on sample bills for DCFC station hosts, with a focus on the eight Intermountain West states participating in the CORWest Project.2 Across the scenarios examined, demand charges account for nearly 74 percent of the average DCFC station host electric bill.

..this is when the Parrot says .. BATTERY SWAPPING


Profits much easier to come by as long as you have busy locations , based on NIOs 2,500 stations. You pretty much eliminate demand charges. Battery swaps along the interstate for road trips.

Just got me thinking about VW investing 5 BILLION into Rivian, (essentially for rivians software expertise which frankly is not that great (watch the videos). Anyway, 5 Billion .. VW and Rivian could team up with NIO to upgrade Rivian/VWs battery pack shell designs preparing them for future battery swap, once that is done ..then simply leasse/buy partner with NIO for thier swap stations . after permitting it literally takes 2 days to install.

VW and Rivian would then have huge advantage over every other EV manufacture in the US. Remember we are selling to a population that is very hesitant about evs ,ESPECIALLY range and they dont want to sit for 30 minutes to charge and then only to 80%.

If VW started making ID 4 for example with swap, customer really likes the car but the charging time turns them off then explaning to customer they dont have to charge ,just pull in to swap station and back on the road in 3 minutes faster than fueling up their gas vehicle..hell yeah that's is what will sell evs in the USA and immediatly shut down cons that are based in reality.

5 billion for software for nerds or 3 minutes and back on the road . 500K station with 23 batteries installed .


So to OP ..with the high power EVs coming on the Market and with bigger batteries the Deamnd charges make creating a profit untenable..

Need a different appoach ..and my opionion based on real world results is that battery swapping is that path. Unless some miracle way for charging 120kW batteries in 5 minutes appears ..and thats not gooing happen


BTW.. you notice how Elon is in no rush to upgrade to faster charging. and you watch videos and everyone s why why why , come n Tesla we need faster charging. Elon is a very strange man but he knows all that is going to do is raise costs for Tesla (demand charges) and make a lot more superchargers unprofitable .

Tesla has become stale , woul not suprise me at all if Elon already has a team working on next generation Tesla that are battery swap ready and a team working on swap stations/and or intalks with NIO. Teslas in China and they know very well the advatange NIO creating (yes I know tesla originally was going with swap stations .Investment would have been huge and not make sense for such a smal market AT THE TIME. Therre wouldnt have been the Volume make it work.profitably..there is now

 

[bwilson4web]

This is my count:

• 5 - battery swap stations in San Francisco servicing ride-share Leafs
• 51 - hydrogen refueling stations in California and one in Hawaii, fuel cell only vehicles
• 235 - Tesla SuperCharger stations of 100 kW and higher across the USA
• 303 - CCS-1 stations of 100 kW and higher access across the USA

With my Tesla CCS-1 kit, I can use 538 = 235+303, charging stations across the USA. I once drove by a hydrogen fuel station going to a nearby SuperCharger station. Having driven from coast to coast in my Tesla, I've never seen a battery swap station and have no relatives in San Francisco.

If the battery swapping stations had either J3400 or CCS-1, fast DC charging lanes, I would visit one. But as long as they don't, I won't.

Bob Wilson

 

[Keith Smith]

I'd put up money, battery swapping is not going to fly long term for reasons I've outlined before. It requires significant infrastructure to manhandle battery packs, and it takes a significant amount of time to swap the packs. The additional time to just charge at a higher rate is not going to make that much difference, and I KNOW where my batteries have been. It's not quite the same as a propane cylinder exchange. I would expect to see large storage at charging stations buffering of the grid, and new battery tech is going to be interesting.

 

[bwilson4web]

It's not quite the same as a propane cylinder exchange.

Propane cylinders have a single, fixed interface. Depending on capacity, fixed dimensions. So what does swapping mean for battery pack development?

• physical dimensions can never deviate from what the swapping stations requires
• battery chemistry must be limited to what the swapping stations requires
• battery innovation and development is dictated by the swapping stations

No, I think not. We already know the Leaf uses inferior air cooling. Air cooled Leaf batteries failed in hot climates like Arizona when the heat led to early failures. So should everyone suffer the same fate as the Leaf batteries whose only feature is being swapping station compatible.

The Nissan LEAF offers two different battery versions including a 40 kWh battery option and a 60 kWh battery option.​

If anyone thinks these are adequate, let them use battery swapping . . . while they last.

Bob Wilson

 

[marshall]

You pretty much eliminate demand charges.

You are not going to eliminate demand chargers. At best, you simply reduce them, and spread out the cost.

 

[marshall]

Well if there is money to be made with battery swapping. Then it will happen. The market will decide if you are right OneEV.

 

[Mark W]

Battery swapping is certainly an interesting topic. One of the ideas that I love is to use a smaller lighter more efficient pack for your normal daily driving and then swap it out for larger pack for when it's needed for road trips. Or have cars be designed with a certain size non-swappable pack, and another swappable pack. Allowing the swapping company to recharge the packs when/where it's most cost effective for them to avoid demand charges would be a plus. It just seems like the additional cost to design cars to take a swappable battery, and the logistical cost of running a swapping station would be cost prohibitive.

 

[bwilson4web]

One of the ideas that I love is to use a smaller lighter more efficient pack for your normal daily driving and then swap it out for larger pack for when it's needed for road trips.

My version is a trailer with an auxiliary battery and luggage storage. Alternatively, a Jon boat with an under boat, water proof, auxiliary battery. Possibly low power wheels so it can be 'wheeled' around the property.

At home, it become whole house, emergency power backup. If there is time of day pricing, charge up with cheap power and discharge at high rate times. Over time, add solar.

Bob Wilson

 

[Keith Smith]

The swapping argument fails on on these points, some of which I never even thought of. To the point above, instead of racking up `100 batteries of various flavors, just put up a container full of batteries that holds about 100 batteries of juice.

 

[Kenny Wallace]

I think it definitely is. I've just seen this video the other day, the host gave a full tour on the charging station in Arkansas, which is very informative and will help you see how other charging businesses are doing. The owner of the station built a cool ecosystem with garden and cafe, as I remembered. It's a full tour so it's pretty long I guess.

Here's the link to the video: An EV Charging Lounge In The Middle Of Arkansas?! Full Tour Franklin’s Charging

 

[bwilson4web]

I prefer the "Buc-ee's" approach. Although the nearest one has CCS-1 chargers, I've upgraded my Tesla with a CCS-1 charging kit. Others have both Tesla and CCS-1 stations. Open 24x7, they have bathrooms, dog walks, and truck stop style food (you won't die by you'll sweat grease.) So I've adopted this workaround:

1. Stop at a nearby, 24x7 mini-mart, truck stop, or Waffle House for bathroom and takeout snack.
2. SuperCharge with dog walk, stretch, eat snack, and if time, a cat-nap.
3. Repeat first two steps until destination.

Bob Wilson

 

[electriceddy]

you don't mind paying a hefty premium for that convenience.

We just are not quite there yet.

Yup, more work to do:

 

[Keith Smith]

The biggest issue with shoving EV's down everyone's throat is that it's more expensive to produce and purchase the vehicle, and more expensive for the fuel if you are buying it commercially. It's seriously foolish to buy an EV if you do not have the ability to charge at "home". If you must use commercial charging, a nice hybrid or gas powered vehicle is dramatically less expensive.

EV's are almost a 'no-brainer' for anyone with the ability to charge at home with discounted electricity (TOU, or very low cost rates, or solar or ...). There are some apartment complexes that have EV plugs available here and there. This would be acceptable if the power cost is inline with the cost of the power at a single family residence, otherwise just stick with gas.

The market will grow organically at this point if the government will just step aside. Electric vehicles have big advantages if the consumer's environment and usage pattern supports it. Pushing too hard just creates a backlash, and moves capital around less efficiently.

 

[Bruce M.]

Government stepping aside is the precise opposite of what needs to happen. Governments need to make it easier for people to charge at home, by subsidizing home chargers and especially apartment/condo chargers (with provisions built in to guarantee reasonable pricing). The latter is a big expense that landlords and HOAs will take only slowly if left on their own without assistance. Planting fast chargers along interstates, which has gotten most of the attention and federal funding, is necessary but insufficient.

 

[Keith Smith]

Government stepping aside is the precise opposite of what needs to happen. Governments need to make it easier for people to charge at home, by subsidizing home chargers and especially apartment/condo chargers (with provisions built in to guarantee reasonable pricing). The latter is a big expense that landlords and HOAs will take only slowly if left on their own without assistance. Planting fast chargers along interstates, which has gotten most of the attention and federal funding, is necessary but insufficient.

Opinions are like, . . . Everyone gets one. I think your premise that government "needs" to do anything is flawed. The cost of installing a simple home charger is practically nothing in the grand scheme. You can put in an EV 30A priority switch on a Dryer plug for $200. An electrician can generally run a 50A plug in a the garage of your $400,000 home for under $1000, and frankly if your buying the pricey EV, you can swing it. The biggest issue with something like an apartment complex is going to be doubling the electrical capacity to the facility, and doubling the overall capacity of the electrical grid in going to be outrageously expensive if you decide it needs to happen overnight.

Pushing the adoption of immature technology is not a recipe for success in any realm. Just look at the charging plug mess we are dealing with right now! An ICE vehicle has many thousands more components than an electric, and yet the similarities and commonality of the components used to build them across the various manufacturers is wide spread. Volumes are now high enough in the EV realm for some parts shake-out in the EV space, but at present all these guys are still figuring it out, not to mention changes that may be required by the new battery tech that is starting to ramp up. It is not an efficient use of capital to spend it excessively to implement technologies that are likely to change dramatically. We've reached a critical mass, EV's are not going anywhere but you could easily set things back 5 years if you create a blowback, rather than an organic growth where the advantages will become obvious over time.

Take Tesla as an example. They built out charging specs that were scalable, then built out thousands of fast charge stations to support their vehicles. With the expectation of improvements over time, they have gutted all the GEN 1 stuff, but they've gone from G1/100KW G2/120KW G3/250KW, and the new G4 will be 1MW. Every penny they didn't spend on now obsolete G1/G2 charging stations rolls into the G3 systems which will allow for other than Tesla vehicles, at a fraction of the cost of the earlier pedestals. Markets need to drive new innovation and improved technology, not government largess.

New home construction now days often plumbs in for an EVSE. My neighbor just built a garage on his place, he plumbed in with TWO 50A outlets one on each side. He doesn't even own an EV, but somehow he managed it without a government program. Stunning I know...

 

[ENirogus]

Yup, more work to do:

I believe this graph is incorrect.
First it lists entire countries vs one US state
Second, I dispute the ratio
5.7 l /100 km converts to 41 mpg
so, what twice the observed fleet economy for the US?
Google cost to fast charge a Rivian, , 65 bucks about the same as 20 gallons of gas. What my Xterra cost to go the same distance

And if you live in one of the 60 percent of homes that are single family detached, you can charge at home. Which you can never do in a gas vehicle.

 

[Bruce M.]

Opinions are like, . . . Everyone gets one. I think your premise that government "needs" to do anything is flawed. The cost of installing a simple home charger is practically nothing in the grand scheme. You can put in an EV 30A priority switch on a Dryer plug for $200. An electrician can generally run a 50A plug in a the garage of your $400,000 home for under $1000, and frankly if your buying the pricey EV, you can swing it. The biggest issue with something like an apartment complex is going to be doubling the electrical capacity to the facility, and doubling the overall capacity of the electrical grid in going to be outrageously expensive if you decide it needs to happen overnight.

Pushing the adoption of immature technology is not a recipe for success in any realm. Just look at the charging plug mess we are dealing with right now! An ICE vehicle has many thousands more components than an electric, and yet the similarities and commonality of the components used to build them across the various manufacturers is wide spread. Volumes are now high enough in the EV realm for some parts shake-out in the EV space, but at present all these guys are still figuring it out, not to mention changes that may be required by the new battery tech that is starting to ramp up. It is not an efficient use of capital to spend it excessively to implement technologies that are likely to change dramatically. We've reached a critical mass, EV's are not going anywhere but you could easily set things back 5 years if you create a blowback, rather than an organic growth where the advantages will become obvious over time.

Take Tesla as an example. They built out charging specs that were scalable, then built out thousands of fast charge stations to support their vehicles. With the expectation of improvements over time, they have gutted all the GEN 1 stuff, but they've gone from G1/100KW G2/120KW G3/250KW, and the new G4 will be 1MW. Every penny they didn't spend on now obsolete G1/G2 charging stations rolls into the G3 systems which will allow for other than Tesla vehicles, at a fraction of the cost of the earlier pedestals. Markets need to drive new innovation and improved technology, not government largess.

New home construction now days often plumbs in for an EVSE. My neighbor just built a garage on his place, he plumbed in with TWO 50A outlets one on each side. He doesn't even own an EV, but somehow he managed it without a government program. Stunning I know...

Thank you for demonstrating -- I presume unintentionally -- how deeply unserious these "government is always bad" arguments are. To address just a few key bits of silliness:

1. Your vision of cheap home EV charging will work for some, but not for lots of homeowners, depending on how the house and wiring are laid out. It would not have been possible in either of the two homes in which I've had my EV. The average American spends about $1200 to buy and install a home charger.

2. No, not all EV buyers are buying "pricey" cars. Some buy used just for that reason. And less expensive EVs are on the way from several companies. That's absolutely necessary for the market to keep growing, and to those folks, several hundred bucks matters. Sorry if people like that aren't in your social circles, but trust me, they exist.

3. The difficulties you cite for installing EV charging in apartment complexes are precisely why government help is needed. It's too much hassle and expense for most landlords to be willing do on their own. Over a third of Americans rent, and a few million of those homeowners live in multi-unit complexes or mobile home parks. Since public charging will for the foreseeable future be much more inconvenient and a time suck than home charging, it will be a deal killer for many. Let's not write off about 40% of drivers.

4. The idea that making EV charging easy, convenient and inexpensive will somehow create blowback is literally the wackiest idea I've heard since the last time Elon Musk tweeted.