PHEVs to Rule Trucks?

[David Towle]

Would you agree the Clarity is a "series hybrid" vehicle? It is, except during the few minutes in a Clarity's life when engine-drive mode is in effect.

I"m surprised you jumped into this fairly ugly and ill informed exchange. I just wanted to comment to you that since I moved to Florida, when I go on a long highway trip the engine drive mode is on about 90% of the time. with occasional breaks to use up excess battery power. Much of the time it can handle even those haha big hills going up and down the major road overpasses. And those are about the only hills that are here. Far more usable than it was anywhere in hilly New England.

 

[insightman]

I"m surprised you jumped into this fairly ugly and ill informed exchange. I just wanted to comment to you that since I moved to Florida, when I go on a long highway trip the engine drive mode is on about 90% of the time. with occasional breaks to use up excess battery power. Much of the time it can handle even those haha big hills going up and down the major road overpasses. And those are about the only hills that are here. Far more usable than it was anywhere in hilly New England.

I surprised myself that I jumped into this fairly ugly exchange. I was curious if a certain forum member could be convinced that the Clarity, unlike my 1st-gen Honda Insights, is a series hybrid, even though it includes the engine-drive mode for maximum efficiency.

I tried to bolster my case by making a data-free claim minimizing the use of engine-drive mode: "during the few minutes in a Clarity's life when engine-drive mode is in effect." I expected to be swatted down with the counter-claim that the inclusion of the Clarity's engine-drive mechanism disqualifies the Clarity from being classified as a series hybrid if it's used for even a single minute in the Clarity's life.

I hereby concede that the inclusion of engine-drive mode disquailfies the Clarity from being classified as a series hybrid. Similarly, the Chevy Volt's Combined Mode that allows the car's gas engine to assist the electric motor propelling the car at high speeds disqualifies that car from being a series hybrid.

We'll have to wait to see if Stellantis keeps the 2025 Ram 1500 Ramcharger series hybrid free of contaminating gears and clutches.

 

[Landshark]

We'll have to wait to see if Stellantis keeps the 2025 Ram 1500 Ramcharger series hybrid free of contaminating gears and clutches.

An electric drivetrain is what Stellantis has emphasized all along.

As for the Clarity, EDM precludes the vehicle from being a series hybrid. That said, those of us who are familiar with the vehicle, know that EDM will only engage at speeds above 45mph AND under low power demand. Steady highway speeds, on relatively flat terrain is when EDM is most likely to engage.

While operating as a series hybrid, the Clarity has traumatized numerous owners. Fears of high revving engines exploding, a disconnect between engine speeds and vehicle response, (aka: acceleration or lack thereof), angry bees, among other descriptions of an unpleasant driving experience have all been expressed.

It does not seem unreasonable to cite the Clarity as an example of a series hybrid that exhibits some peculiar behavior, quite possibly due to a marginal powertrain, when discussing other serial hybrids. Does the fact that it has the ability to operate as a parallel hybrid change how it operates as a series hybrid?

 

[insightman]

An electric drivetrain is what Stellantis has emphasized all along.

That's how GM characterized the Volt at first. Eventually, their cover was blown and they had to admit the existence of the Volt's Combined Mode equivalent of the Clarity's Engine-Drive Mode. Motor Trend reported, "GM says the engine never drives the wheels all by itself," as if that gave GM a pass on the Combined Mode.

We can assume Stellantis remembers GM's embarassing revelation and has no desire to recreate that scenario. Post-Volt advances in battery technology certainly make it easier for Stellantis to adhere strictly to the series-hybrid formula. We'll have to wait to see if GM will snicker, "We know how Stellantis could have made that truck more fuel-efficient."

I'm disappointed I can't find any videos of the Ram 1500 Ramcharger in action to hear if it makes the "angry bees" sound that disappoints some Honda Clarity PHEV owners.

 

[Landshark]

That's how GM characterized the Volt at first. Eventually, their cover was blown and they had to admit the existence of the Volt's Combined Mode equivalent of the Clarity's Engine-Drive Mode. Motor Trend reported, "GM says the engine never drives the wheels all by itself," as if that gave GM a pass on the Combined Mode.

We can assume Stellantis remembers GM's embarassing revelation and has no desire to recreate that scenario. Post-Volt advances in battery technology certainly make it easier for Stellantis to adhere strictly to the series-hybrid formula. We'll have to wait to see if GM will snicker, "We know how Stellantis could have made that truck more fuel-efficient."

I'm disappointed I can't find any videos of the Ram 1500 Ramcharger in action to hear if it makes the "angry bees" sound that disappoints some Honda Clarity PHEV owners.

Your proposed, theoretical scandal will not be possible with the Ramcharger.

As for engine sounds, Stellantis has stated that it will be “intuitive” for those accustomed to an ICE vehicle. While that description is somewhat vague, it could suggest that the generator rpm’s will simulate that of an engine in a conventional vehicle.

 

[insightman]

Your proposed, theoretical scandal will not be possible with the Ramcharger.

As for engine sounds, Stellantis has stated that it will be “intuitive” for those accustomed to an ICE vehicle. While that description is somewhat vague, it could suggest that the generator rpm’s will simulate that of an engine in a conventional vehicle.

I thought Stellantis was being cagey when they wrote of the Ramcharger, "The generator can also increase the power to the motor and gearbox when serious power is needed." Why did they say "motor and gearbox" instead of just "motor?" If the generator is providing power to the gearbox...

 

[Landshark]

Why did they say "motor and gearbox" instead of just "motor?" If the generator is providing power to the gearbox...

Gearboxes aka: Speed Reducers, are commonly used in conjunction with electric motors.

 

[insightman]

Gearboxes aka: Speed Reducers, are commonly used in conjunction with electric motors.

If only the motor is receiving increased power from the generator, why did Stellantis mention the "gearbox?" Why not list all the other components between the motor and the road for absolute clarity? Truck customers coming from the non-EV world associate "gearbox" with something other than an electric-motor speed reducer, so the mention of the gearbox is extraneous, misleading or suspicious.

 

[insightman]

Have you taken your medication today?

I'm glad you understood my point.

 

[ENirogus]

I surprised myself that I jumped into this fairly ugly exchange. I was curious if a certain forum member could be convinced that the Clarity, unlike my 1st-gen Honda Insights, is a series hybrid, even though it includes the engine-drive mode for maximum efficiency.

For the purposes of this conversation, the Clarity is not comparable to the Ramcharger, and the comments on lack of power and slowing down are irrelevant, because the drive system is not designed as a pure series hybrid. It is only in relation to this commentary that I made that point. I do not have any experience WRT why a Clarity would do this, but I am positing that it comes from running it in an inappropriate mode for the conditions.
None of this would be possible in the Ramcharger as it is proposed, unless again, the software writers allowed the operator to make dubious decisions[IE running it in never start the engine mode and tow mode simultaneously ]

The Ramcharger, as proposed, would never with an ICE engine half the size of the one proposed, ever get into a slow, low power condition unless the operator ran out of gas, and then drained the battery to turtle mode levels

 

[ENirogus]

Oops! Looks like we have a depleted battery. Needed 70, had 35, generator provided an additional 35, now at zero. All this with a 10 year old writing software and a genius driving.

What about a depleted battery being nonsense? You’ve just created the scenario to produce that result. Now you’re driving a 7000lb truck, pulling a 14,000 trailer with a 106kw generator and depleted batteries. Let’s all pray to the goddess of electrons that there won’t be a call for too much power until the batteries have had a chance to recharge a bit.

But wait! You just built a truck with a 106kw generator. The marketing department at Stellantis designed a truck with a generator rated for 130kw of continuous duty. Maybe you’re on to something here. Perhaps a career in marketing?

Another thing the marketing department surely knows is to size an engine to run between 60-80% of its rated output, to power a generator at its continuous duty rating. A 130kw rating, or 175hp, would be powered by an engine that is rated between 210-290hp. Where on Earth would the Stellantis marketing department find such an engine?

They’ll probably just ask an ignoramus.

Good lord
So, math not being your strong point, you noticed that I made some calculations and assumptions, and then doubled the number
What do you suppose the duty cycle on a series hybrid powertrain is?
compared to an ICE vehicle?
Really
The percentage of time a series hybrid engine can be expected to run at all, no less at max output are so small that you can use a much more aggressive engineering calculation when estimating design life.
Unless marketing is the more important factor

 

[Landshark]

you noticed that I made some calculations and assumptions,

What I’ve really noticed is that you have very little knowledge of the Clarity or the Ramcharger and that you present yourself as someone who has formed strong opinions based on speculation and assumptions.

You’re stuck in an unproductive loop.

 

[ENirogus]

What I’ve really noticed is that you have very little knowledge of the Clarity or the Ramcharger and that you present yourself as someone who has formed strong opinions based on speculation and assumptions.

You’re stuck in an unproductive loop.

I've noticed that you are someone who has a high opinion of their knowledge and formed strong opinions based on speculation and assumptions. And are bad a math

 

[Landshark]

Forever in the loop.

Forever on the Ignore List.

Bye-bye.

 

[Landshark]

I'm glad you understood my point.

Not sure I did.

 

[TC1782]

I surprised myself that I jumped into this fairly ugly exchange. I was curious if a certain forum member could be convinced that the Clarity, unlike my 1st-gen Honda Insights, is a series hybrid, even though it includes the engine-drive mode for maximum efficiency.

I tried to bolster my case by making a data-free claim minimizing the use of engine-drive mode: "during the few minutes in a Clarity's life when engine-drive mode is in effect." I expected to be swatted down with the counter-claim that the inclusion of the Clarity's engine-drive mechanism disqualifies the Clarity from being classified as a series hybrid if it's used for even a single minute in the Clarity's life.

I hereby concede that the inclusion of engine-drive mode disquailfies the Clarity from being classified as a series hybrid. Similarly, the Chevy Volt's Combined Mode that allows the car's gas engine to assist the electric motor propelling the car at high speeds disqualifies that car from being a series hybrid.

We'll have to wait to see if Stellantis keeps the 2025 Ram 1500 Ramcharger series hybrid free of contaminating gears and clutches.

I definitely agree, if the engine can power the wheels directly at any point, it is by definition not a series hybrid. But for the purposes of extended high load periods it may as well be, engine drive mode simply wouldn't be used once the battery gets too low.

 

[TC1782]

An electric drivetrain is what Stellantis has emphasized all along.

As for the Clarity, EDM precludes the vehicle from being a series hybrid. That said, those of us who are familiar with the vehicle, know that EDM will only engage at speeds above 45mph AND under low power demand. Steady highway speeds, on relatively flat terrain is when EDM is most likely to engage.

While operating as a series hybrid, the Clarity has traumatized numerous owners. Fears of high revving engines exploding, a disconnect between engine speeds and vehicle response, (aka: acceleration or lack thereof), angry bees, among other descriptions of an unpleasant driving experience have all been expressed.

It does not seem unreasonable to cite the Clarity as an example of a series hybrid that exhibits some peculiar behavior, quite possibly due to a marginal powertrain, when discussing other serial hybrids. Does the fact that it has the ability to operate as a parallel hybrid change how it operates as a series hybrid?

For hybrids such as the clarity and insight? It doesn't. For something like the volt, or that 2 mode hybrid thing, it may be different, but I never drove one of those, and I haven't spent much time looking over how those systems work.

 

[TC1782]

That's how GM characterized the Volt at first. Eventually, their cover was blown and they had to admit the existence of the Volt's Combined Mode equivalent of the Clarity's Engine-Drive Mode. Motor Trend reported, "GM says the engine never drives the wheels all by itself," as if that gave GM a pass on the Combined Mode.

We can assume Stellantis remembers GM's embarassing revelation and has no desire to recreate that scenario. Post-Volt advances in battery technology certainly make it easier for Stellantis to adhere strictly to the series-hybrid formula. We'll have to wait to see if GM will snicker, "We know how Stellantis could have made that truck more fuel-efficient."

I'm disappointed I can't find any videos of the Ram 1500 Ramcharger in action to hear if it makes the "angry bees" sound that disappoints some Honda Clarity PHEV owners.

Main reason why series hybrids aren't more commonly used is become of efficiency, and the fact that you need to have a traction motor that is capable of outputting all the power to the wheels, and a generator sufficiently sized for the engine.

 

[Landshark]

engine drive mode simply wouldn't be used once the battery gets too low.

EDM will engage when the battery is depleted, or at 2 bars on the gauge. SOC is irrelevant. Speed needs to be at or above 45mph AND torque needs to remain in a very narrow band in order for EDM to engage and remain engaged. It’s that simple.

 

[Landshark]

For hybrids such as the clarity and insight? It doesn't. For something like the volt, or that 2 mode hybrid thing, it may be different, but I never drove one of those, and I haven't spent much time looking over how those systems work.

To which part of my post does your reply refer? It’s a bit on a non sequitur without some context.