PHEVs to Rule Trucks?

[insightman]

Is it possible that the Ramcharger will move a number of ICE driving goobers out of their 12mpg trucks and into something that will allow them to do 80-90% of their daily driving on batteries, thereby meeting your definition of a “nice” vehicle?

Nope. Abandon their 12 mpg trucks (especially diesels)? Never!

It's only people like you who understand these things who will be willing to spend a few extra bucks for something like a Ramcharger that can reduce fuel expenses and cause less harm to the environment. In fact, after seeing the coal-rollers billowing clouds of black smoke, it's clear that harming the environment is actually the point those truck drivers want to make.

 

[Landshark]

Nope. Abandon their 12 mpg trucks (especially diesels)? Never!

It's only people like you who understand these things who will be willing to spend a few extra bucks for something like a Ramcharger that can reduce fuel expenses and cause less harm to the environment. In fact, after seeing the coal-rollers billowing clouds of black smoke, it's clear that harming the environment is actually the point those truck drivers want to make.

Thanks for sharing your opinion.

Do you have any fact based answers to the other questions?

FWIW: Our electricity rates in Michigan, Consumers Energy, work out to about $.18/kWh after all fees, surcharges and taxes. At 1.5 miles per kWh that works out to $.12/mile. At $3.20/gal for gas and 20mpg the cost per mile is $.16. That would amount to a difference of $400 every 10,000 miles. In winter, reduced EV range could make the cost difference insignificant.
In Oregon, with $4.00 gas and $.12 electricity, before our solar offset, the electric option is more advantageous.

 

[NorCalPete]

Nope. Abandon their 12 mpg trucks (especially diesels)? Never!

Since the Ramcharger was announced last November, I've been spending a lot of time on truck forums (mostly Ford and Ram) and reading posted comments in every Ramcharger video I've watched. I've been very surprised by the number of current truck owners (self-identified, including both gas and diesel owners across all manufacturers) who are very interested in the Ramcharger. Stated reasons for their interest, in order of importance, are: 1) cost/convenience of ev mode, 2) impressive payload/towing/range capabilities in a 1/2 ton form factor (vs. a larger 3/4 ton truck), and 3) reduced carbon footprint. Biggest concerns dissuading potential buyers are: 1) purchase price (by far the biggest issue), 2) reliability concerns, and 3) actual range/mpg with heavy cargo or a trailer. This obviously is all anecdotal. Similar to @insightman, I didn't expect so many die-hard, long-time truck owners to be so interested in the Ramcharger.

 

[Landshark]

Similar to @insightman, I didn't expect so many die-hard, long-time truck owners to be so interested in the Ramcharger.

A couple more questions for the Behind the Badge series:
How many people have joined Insider +?
What are the anticipated MSRP’s for each trim level?
What are the anticipated sales numbers for the Ramcharger?

Certainly, most, if not all, who have expressed an interest are currently owners of gas or diesel trucks. They’ll be moving from a planet destroying vehicle to one that has the potential to destroy the planet to a lesser degree.

Now if we can just find a way to keep our hunger for electricity, and the grid that is required to meet that demand, from setting the country on fire and reducing the carbon sequestration system by millions of acres every year, we’ll be good to go. Of course, we’ll need to keep electricity rates from skyrocketing while we sue the power companies and devise this plan so as not to make the cost of operating an electrified vehicle more than the cost to operate a gas or diesel vehicle.

 

[insightman]

Do you have any fact based answers to the other questions?

Are you certain that a 4-cylinder would be able to meet the required power demands while also being more efficient than the V-6? Would the 4-cylinder require forced induction?

I guess that depends on the required power demands. A 4-cylinder would be able to meet the required power demands for some users, the Ramcharger V6 would be able to meet the required power demands of more users.

What size motors does Tesla use? Their cars are quite zippy and also very efficient. Didn’t the article also mention that the Charger was rather efficient, even though the big boss and his customers don’t care about efficiency?

Engine power for Tesla cars manufactured in the U.S.: 3D1 202 kW; 3D3 137 kW; 3D5 180 kW
Yes, the article said that the big boss and his customers don't care how efficient their cars are even though the cars do not appear to be wildly inefficient. It will be interesting to see how they compare to Tesla cars in quickness and efficiency.

Would a nice (for the environment) sporty looking car that went from 0-60 in 10 seconds use less energy if it were to go from 0-60 in 5 seconds?

An EV that can get to 60 in 5 seconds would be heavier than the same EV with a motor that can't get the EV to 60 in less than 10 seconds (assuming equal range), so it would use more energy.

Is it possible that the Ramcharger will move a number of ICE driving goobers out of their 12mpg trucks and into something that will allow them to do 80-90% of their daily driving on batteries, thereby meeting your definition of a “nice” vehicle?

I thought not, but I learned from @NorCalPete there is anecdotal evidence that many big pickup drivers are willing to switch from big gas and diesels to electrified pickups.

 

[Landshark]

An EV that can get to 60 in 5 seconds would be heavier than the same EV with a motor that can't get the EV to 60 in less than 10 seconds (assuming equal range), so it would use more energy.

The weight difference between the 2 motors could easily be less than the weight difference between 2 drivers, or 2 cars with different trim levels.

Not everyone wants a turd on 4 wheels that can’t get out of its own way.

 

[insightman]

The weight difference between the 2 motors could easily be less than the weight difference between 2 drivers, or 2 cars with different trim levels.

Not everyone wants a turd on 4 wheels that can’t get out of its own way.

Copy that.

 

[ENirogus]

Way to read whatever you wish into an article.
Nowhere, I mean nowhere, does the article imply that a smaller engine would not do the job
It is about NVH

marketing, just like I said originally
having an engine half the size would not, ever, in any way cause the vehicle to become 'unable to get out of its own way'

 

[Landshark]

Copy that.

Buyers should have sluggish, low performance vehicles made available to them for purchase. It isn’t a bad choice especially if the cars look sporty.

For those who want something a tad more zippy, it’s comforting to know that the grundel tingling acceleration comes with little to no overall loss of efficiency.

 

[NorCalPete]

Here's some towing and payload info for the Ramcharger (from the comments section of this Behind the Badge video).

Ram stated: "Our current analysis is that with a 14,000 lb. trailer we expect a combined towing range to be >250 miles at 65 mph on level ground."

In an earlier comment, they stated that "a base version is capable of 2625 lbs max payload, options and features that are selected will reduce the payload value accordingly."

Given this, the Ramcharger still seems to be in ballpark for meeting my needs/wants as a tow vehicle for my 6000 lb. travel trailer.

 

[TC1782]

Thanks. There was some conjecture awhile back on this thread about the V6 being a larger than necessary engine for the Ramcharger.

Interestingly, the author of the linked article, who appears to be a human that is actually capable of writing without AI assistance, also questions whether a smaller engine may have offered better fuel economy and lower emissions.

It seems there are more armchair engineers at large than I had imagined.

Just as a prerequisite I'm going to be exclusively referring to full series and series-parallel hybrids here, and I'm going off a fairly accurate assumption that the bigger engine is going to have (slightly) higher peak efficiency, and more power. Im also going off the assumption that the battery is sufficiently capable of soaking up any excess energy from the engine, something in fairly comfortable assuming since this is a plug in hybrid, with a smaller hybrid battery (ie 1kwh), absorbing the excess energy from a larger engine might not be something you could do without overloading or wearing out the battery, therefore deviating from the most efficient operating point would be necessary.
Really important to note here that with hybrid vehicles, downsizing really doesn't work, engine output can be decoupled form the actual power demands from the road. Bigger engines are (to a certain point) inherently more efficient than smaller engines, the rationale behind downsizing (and down speeding) is to spend less time at low load areas where the engine is less efficient. With a hybrid, so long as you have a sufficiently capable battery to absorb the excess energy to bring the engine up to its most efficient operating area, your in theory going to get better efficiency by using a better engine. Granted you don't want to make the engine so big that the engine is only on like 10% of the time for general driving, sending energy to the battery and taking it out will incur additional energy losses, that may or may not be offset by the higher efficiency of a larger engine, but on top of that you have a heavier engine, and that may very well negate any theoretical benefit.

 

[ENirogus]

Just as a prerequisite I'm going to be exclusively referring to full series and series-parallel hybrids here, and I'm going off a fairly accurate assumption that the bigger engine is going to have (slightly) higher peak efficiency

why do you make that assumption?

Really important to note here that with hybrid vehicles, downsizing really doesn't work, engine output can be decoupled form the actual power demands from the road. Bigger engines are (to a certain point) inherently more efficient than smaller engines,

says who?

the rationale behind downsizing (and down speeding) is to spend less time at low load areas where the engine is less efficient.
With a hybrid, so long as you have a sufficiently capable battery to absorb the excess energy to bring the engine up to its most efficient operating area, your in theory going to get better efficiency by using a better engine.

what is 'better'?

Granted you don't want to make the engine so big that the engine is only on like 10% of the time for general driving, sending energy to the battery and taking it out will incur additional energy losses, that may or may not be offset by the higher efficiency of a larger engine, but on top of that you have a heavier engine, and that may very well negate any theoretical benefit.

I think all your assumptions are fallacious
ICE engines run more efficiently when the throttle plate is open.
grassrootsmotorsports:
Gasoline engines are more efficient at larger throttle openings, due to reduced pumping losses through the throttle plate. Also, higher RPMs result in more frictional losses inside the engine. OTOH, wide open throttle often puts the car into an open-loop mode and makes it run richer.Oct 1


So, in general a larger throttle opening[to a point] means higher efficiency
There is virtually no small displacement engine that is less efficient[burns more fuel for a given power output] than a large engine
Then add the fact that you have to drag the weight of the engine around all the time even when it is not running
And the weight of the frame and suspension to support that larger engine
And that you could have more battery instead of dead engine weight


It is marketing, 100 percent
The buyers they are after don't want no dang 4 cylinder engine, period

 

[ENirogus]

The weight difference between the 2 motors could easily be less than the weight difference between 2 drivers, or 2 cars with different trim levels.

Not everyone wants a turd on 4 wheels that can’t get out of its own way.

The size of the ICE engine in this vehicle has nothing to do with how fast it can go or how much it can haul
The size of the ICE engine in this vehicle has nothing to do with how fast it can go or how much it can haul
The size of the ICE engine in this vehicle has nothing to do with how fast it can go or how much it can haul
The size of the ICE engine in this vehicle has nothing to do with how fast it can go or how much it can haul
The size of the ICE engine in this vehicle has nothing to do with how fast it can go or how much it can haul
The size of the ICE engine in this vehicle has nothing to do with how fast it can go or how much it can haul

 

[TC1782]

why do you make that assumption?
Because it is a reasonable assumption, and I need to make it clear what assumptions I have made.
says who?
Science. Read reports by the ANL, or SAE papers, or one of the EPAs gigantic reports on gasoline engine technology.
what is 'better'?
I meant bigger

I think all your assumptions are fallacious
ICE engines run more efficiently when the throttle plate is open.
Engines run most efficiently at mid-high load, wide open throttle tends to be less efficient due to timing retarding, fuel enrichment.
grassrootsmotorsports:
Gasoline engines are more efficient at larger throttle openings, due to reduced pumping losses through the throttle plate. Also, higher RPMs result in more frictional losses inside the engine. OTOH, wide open throttle often puts the car into an open-loop mode and makes it run richer.
Im not disputing this, did you read or understand my original post? Also keep in mind you usually will get peak thermal efficiency in the range of 2000-3000 or so rpm at a mid-high load.


So, in general a larger throttle opening[to a point] means higher efficiency
There is virtually no small displacement engine that is less efficient[burns more fuel for a given power output] than a large engine.
This is complete and utter bullshit that demonstrates you lack an understanding of how these things work.
Then add the fact that you have to drag the weight of the engine around all the time even when it is not running
And the weight of the frame and suspension to support that larger engine
And that you could have more battery instead of dead engine weight
This is a silly argument that is often used against PHEVs, there is a VERY good reason why almost every plugin hybrid made isn't using a 2 cylinder motorcycle engine that barely meets the power requirements on a level road (looking at you, I3-REX).


It is marketing, 100 percent
The buyers they are after don't want no dang 4 cylinder engine, period
I don't think you understand that there are legitimate reasons why people want a more powerful engine, even in a plug-in hybrid.

 

[TC1782]

The size of the ICE engine in this vehicle has nothing to do with how fast it can go or how much it can haul
The size of the ICE engine in this vehicle has nothing to do with how fast it can go or how much it can haul
The size of the ICE engine in this vehicle has nothing to do with how fast it can go or how much it can haul
The size of the ICE engine in this vehicle has nothing to do with how fast it can go or how much it can haul
The size of the ICE engine in this vehicle has nothing to do with how fast it can go or how much it can haul
The size of the ICE engine in this vehicle has nothing to do with how fast it can go or how much it can haul

A battery is not an infinite reservoir of energy that you can magically drain power from indefinitely. Hybrids and plugin hybrids (particularly the clarity) that have an underpowered engine from the point of view of HP-LB suffer from deterioration in NVH and power when you are doing something such as climbing a long incline.

 

[ENirogus]

A battery is not an infinite reservoir of energy that you can magically drain power from indefinitely. Hybrids and plugin hybrids (particularly the clarity) that have an underpowered engine from the point of view of HP-LB suffer from deterioration in NVH and power when you are doing something such as climbing a long incline.

Again, illogical and irrational reasoning
There is no reason to have a larger engine than is required for the average load.
With modern computer software there is zero reason to have an oversized engine
Imagine a scenario where you arrive at the base of the Sierra Madres towing your 9k trailer with zero battery capacity and a full tank of gas
How on earth would this happen?
Your entire argument is assuming I am saying undersized engine
I am saying the V6 is oversized

 

[ENirogus]

Baloney
you do not understand ICE engines
I provided a link explaining the theory, there are dozens hundreds similar
I find zero to support your contention that a larger engine is more efficient

 

[TC1782]

Again, illogical and irrational reasoning
There is no reason to have a larger engine than is required for the average load.
With modern computer software there is zero reason to have an oversized engine
Imagine a scenario where you arrive at the base of the Sierra Madres towing your 9k trailer with zero battery capacity and a full tank of gas
How on earth would this happen?
Your entire argument is assuming I am saying undersized engine
I am saying the V6 is oversized

Has it ever occured to you that sometimes there is a greater than average load? Such as towing something? Or high altitude? Or an incline? Have you ever driven a car with an underpowered engine full of people up a mountain? A hybrid system can pull of MANY trucks with an engine and a battery, not magic.

 

[TC1782]

Baloney
you do not understand ICE engines
I provided a link explaining the theory, there are dozens hundreds similar
I find zero to support your contention that a larger engine is more efficient

There are many sources for what I say, here is one that comes to mind, form Honda. Have you ever noticed that cars like the Prius have upsized their engine over many generations?

 

[ENirogus]

A battery is not an infinite reservoir of energy that you can magically drain power from indefinitely. Hybrids and plugin hybrids (particularly the clarity) that have an underpowered engine from the point of view of HP-LB suffer from deterioration in NVH and power when you are doing something such as climbing a long incline.

The Clarity is not a serial hybrid. It is an economy car and it only has issues when run in a mode where the battery is allowed to drain and the electric motor is not available to assist powering the car. Bad driver choices and or software