Here’s a screenshot from a techmoment.net article which states that LiFePo4 is a Lithium-ion battery. Yes, there are different chemistries and characteristics.
12v Battery Replacement
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Here’s a screenshot from a techmoment.net article which states that LiFePo4 is a Lithium-ion battery. Yes, there are different chemistries and characteristics.
There must be another thread where mention is made of a Costco/Kirkland 51R battery with a warranty as good or better than the Honda replacement battery, but this thread will have to do.
Today was the day. I opened the door and the seat did not move from the #2 position to the #1 position. Dead battery. In the flurry of activity to prepare for a 7 week trip away from the house, I neglected to connect the Battery Tender to the battery. The last time I attempted to murder the battery was over a 6 month stretch in 2020. On that occasion, the jump pack brought the car back to life in a few seconds and all has been well since then. Not today. The best it could do was turn on the passenger side headlight and a few dash lights.
We used the Jeep for the morning errands and discussed new strategies for the afternoon errands. I’d take the truck to get a new battery while she used the Jeep. Off to Costco with the dead puppy. Costco only sells Interstate batteries with a 36 month warranty. Their Group 51R was $120. According to the guy at the desk they haven’t sold Kirkland automotive batteries with the 100 month warranty since 2010. Off to Honda.
Their 51R with the 100 month pro-rated warranty was $130. Problem solved.
Also of note, the employee in the parts department believes the battery, which is distributed by Honda in Torrance, CA, is an Interstate battery. It does not have the precision battery condition viewing window.
Today was the day. I opened the door and the seat did not move from the #2 position to the #1 position. Dead battery. In the flurry of activity to prepare for a 7 week trip away from the house, I neglected to connect the Battery Tender to the battery. The last time I attempted to murder the battery was over a 6 month stretch in 2020. On that occasion, the jump pack brought the car back to life in a few seconds and all has been well since then. Not today. The best it could do was turn on the passenger side headlight and a few dash lights.
We used the Jeep for the morning errands and discussed new strategies for the afternoon errands. I’d take the truck to get a new battery while she used the Jeep. Off to Costco with the dead puppy. Costco only sells Interstate batteries with a 36 month warranty. Their Group 51R was $120. According to the guy at the desk they haven’t sold Kirkland automotive batteries with the 100 month warranty since 2010. Off to Honda.
Their 51R with the 100 month pro-rated warranty was $130. Problem solved.
Also of note, the employee in the parts department believes the battery, which is distributed by Honda in Torrance, CA, is an Interstate battery. It does not have the precision battery condition viewing window.
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FWIW: The car is a 2019 that we’ve had for 4 years and one month. I believe it was on the dealer lot for about 2 months prior to our purchase.
Had the battery not been subjected to the 2 deep discharges it’s possible that it may have lasted another 2-3 years. There was also a third occasion where the car was left without a maintainer for about 5 weeks. While the car did power up after that period, it probably didn’t do the battery any favors.
Had the battery not been subjected to the 2 deep discharges it’s possible that it may have lasted another 2-3 years. There was also a third occasion where the car was left without a maintainer for about 5 weeks. While the car did power up after that period, it probably didn’t do the battery any favors.
Clarity_Newbie
Active Member
Update from 2021 thread
For those interested
The clarity I drive has run with the Optima yellow top AGM for going on 4 years.
The battery has performed as expected with no issues whatsoever.
Full disclosure...I do a bi-annual maintenance charge...once in the spring n once in the fall... opinions vary on the necessity of said charges but data does support it doesn't hurt and most likely extends its useful life.
I just did the spring maintenance charge which is what made think of this thread.
Hopefully this info proves helpful to some who do their own research on replacement components for their Clarity.
Have a great day.
FWIW: I just replaced the 12V battery in my GMC truck. It was some off brand and was installed 10 years ago. Never did a thing to help it out. It was still capable of starting the truck but tested at somewhere between 60-70%. Probably could have nursed it for another year or two.
MrFixit
Well-Known Member
Just a point of reference...
My 12V battery failed today (2018).
The local Honda dealer wants $174 (this is the 36 month full replacement, then pro-rated to 100 months).
A Costco battery is $120 (36 month), or $185 for an AGM battery (also 36 month)
Walmart Everstart Maxx battery $149 (36 month).
Advance Auto (DieHard Gold) $214 (36 month)
I'll probably go with the Honda (because of the 100 month pro-rated) but it is pricier than previously reported here.
My 12V battery failed today (2018).
The local Honda dealer wants $174 (this is the 36 month full replacement, then pro-rated to 100 months).
A Costco battery is $120 (36 month), or $185 for an AGM battery (also 36 month)
Walmart Everstart Maxx battery $149 (36 month).
Advance Auto (DieHard Gold) $214 (36 month)
I'll probably go with the Honda (because of the 100 month pro-rated) but it is pricier than previously reported here.
NorCalPete
Active Member
I haven't yet replaced my 2018 battery, but likely will need to in the near future. Given that I'm planning to keep our Clarity for the long haul, I'm wondering if it would be feasible and ultimately cheaper to replace it with a small lithium (LiFePo4) battery that likely would outlast the car. Lithium batteries aren't designed to crank motors, but that's not an issue for the Clarity. They do have lower resistance that could overtax (overload) the car's charging system, but a DC-to-DC converter/limiter could resolve that issue. Lithiums typically need 14.4 - 14.6 volts to fully charge, but it doesn't cause any harm to habitually charge them to only 80% capacity (and some argue that this extends their life anyway). Has anyone looked into this?
MrFixit
Well-Known Member
I posed this question a couple of years ago (post #29 above)... Didn't really get a satisfying answer at that time.
I agree that cranking amps should not be an issue. I am not sure exactly how to size it properly.
You might argue that the size could be based on the parasitic current draw. I measured that quite a while back and it was around 100 mA. So, let's say you wanted to be sure the battery didn't drain if it was idle for a month... This seems conservative and it would represent an energy of 72 aH. Well, here is just one example of a battery that is size 51R (perfect fit) and has a capacity of 50 aH (maybe reasonable):
https://powertexbatteries.com/produ...ium-iron-phosphate-lifepo4-automotive-battery
Well, it costs $550 so you are looking at something that likely costs 3X a conventional battery.
That, plus the other uncertainties that you mentioned make me want to stick with the old-school replacement. But by all means - if you see a good deal and want to try it - I think it is highly likely that it would cause no harm. I know you are certainly not one to shy away from blazing a new trail !!
NorCalPete
Active Member
Sometimes I blaze new trails that lead me right off of a cliff! I'm a bit embarrassed to learn that you posted this question earlier, and on this very thread.
Based on your calculations, a 50AH lithium battery might not be sufficient if the Clarity can't fully charge it (due to the voltage being too low). Another potential problem would be damaging the battery by charging it when the temperature is below freezing. That wouldn't be an issue where I live, but it could become one if I traveled to a colder location.
Paying $550 for a Group 51R lithium battery is far beyond what I would have expected, given that I recently bought a well-made Li-Time 100AH LiFePo4 for $170 including tax/shipping. I wonder if that higher price is due to the form factor. I just search for similar-sized batteries and found a close match (Weize 12V 50Ah LiFePo4 Group 24) for $150 (after coupon but before tax/shipping). One dimension is potentially problematic (it's 0.3675" wider), but maybe the battery tray could be modified. I might dig into this further, but if my battery suddenly dies all bets are off -- I'll probably just buy a Honda replacement like you are doing.
David Towle
Well-Known Member
For ICE cars I've gone by replacing a battery when, after sitting for a few hours in off position, it reads 12.2 or fewer volts. After 6 months on the lot and 66 months in my hands mine is still at 12.7 volts so seems quite good. This time has been half in Connecticut and half in south Florida. Anything wrong with this method on a clarity?
MrFixit
Well-Known Member
I think this would fit... Having just replaced it, the battery tray is a little weird, but there is a padded 'blanket' that goes around the battery. I put it back on, but it seemed rather pointless and I think without it, the extra 3/8" would be available.
I am not sure why you are worried about not reaching a full charge. When ''running' the battery is the usual 14.4V, and the specs on the Weize you found say "Charge Voltage 14.4".
The terminal orientation is reversed, but you would need to adapt the terminals anyway because the Weize does not have the big 'lugs'.
Heck - If I hadn't already replaced the battery before seeing your post, I may have tried one of these !
But I am now having second thoughts about my battery capacity guestimate because of this -
We also have a 2023 Tesla. Tesla now uses a Lithium Ion battery for the low voltage systems. Hopefully it will last a long time, but it is quite expensive if it fails (I think around $800). Of course, it is only available from Tesla, and it is not simply a 2-pin device (there are other connections, precluding the use of a generic battery). In addition, it is nominally 15.5V, but rated at only 6.9 Ah. This causes some issues like the auxiliary power outlets have 15.5V which could damage electronics that you might plug in. You certainly have to be mindful of this or risk damaging something. It is a little hard to believe that the Tesla is OK with a measily 6.9 Ah battery and the Clarity needs so much more. Of course, I am not certain whether the Tesla can invoke the HV battery to charge the 15.5V one when the vehicle is off. Many unknowns there...
The Tesla battery looks like this:
It would be tempting to just try something like this: https://a.co/d/cXS65Yi as an experiment. The 18 Ah version is $52. If my 100 mA parasitic current is right, then this would only last around a week in the Clarity without driving.
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NorCalPete
Active Member
@MrFixit
I finally got a chance to look under the hood of our Clarity (a challenge given my current work schedule, and that the car often is in use by my wife or kids). I agree with you, that battery tray is weird, and I'm not sure about the purpose of the battery "blanket" (additional temperature or electrical short protection, reduce vibration, or ?). Regarding my charging concerns, I had forgotten that the Clarity provides 14.4 volts to the battery -- as you noted, this is the preferred "bulk/boost" charging voltage for many lithium batteries, including the Weize. As for Tesla's battery --- wow, $800 for a 6.9 Ah battery is crazy expensive!
I also gave more thought to swapping a lithium battery for the stock one, and kept coming back to concerns about temperatures under the hood, both cold and hot. A little searching led me to this YouTube video in which someone gathered real-world data and shared it with the battery manufacturer. The take-away was that lithium batteries are ill-suited for placement under the hood -- the heat from the running engine can easily increase temperatures far beyond what is recommended (or safe) for most lithium batteries. At best, this could significantly shorten the battery's life -- at worst, it could damage the battery or BMS to the point of becoming a safety hazard. While I really like using LiFePo4 batteries wherever possible (currently in my travel trailer and garden shed, and eventually in my home), for me, under the hood of a car just isn't worth the risk.
I finally got a chance to look under the hood of our Clarity (a challenge given my current work schedule, and that the car often is in use by my wife or kids). I agree with you, that battery tray is weird, and I'm not sure about the purpose of the battery "blanket" (additional temperature or electrical short protection, reduce vibration, or ?). Regarding my charging concerns, I had forgotten that the Clarity provides 14.4 volts to the battery -- as you noted, this is the preferred "bulk/boost" charging voltage for many lithium batteries, including the Weize. As for Tesla's battery --- wow, $800 for a 6.9 Ah battery is crazy expensive!
I also gave more thought to swapping a lithium battery for the stock one, and kept coming back to concerns about temperatures under the hood, both cold and hot. A little searching led me to this YouTube video in which someone gathered real-world data and shared it with the battery manufacturer. The take-away was that lithium batteries are ill-suited for placement under the hood -- the heat from the running engine can easily increase temperatures far beyond what is recommended (or safe) for most lithium batteries. At best, this could significantly shorten the battery's life -- at worst, it could damage the battery or BMS to the point of becoming a safety hazard. While I really like using LiFePo4 batteries wherever possible (currently in my travel trailer and garden shed, and eventually in my home), for me, under the hood of a car just isn't worth the risk.
Robert_Alabama
Well-Known Member
Given that my original battery is now approaching 6 years old, I'm probably just going to buy the cheapest one, probably the Costco. It seems that I'm driving plenty often enough to keep it charged as I've never had it discharge due to inactivity. I also keep the car in a pretty temperature controlled area (either basement garage at my house or essentially a basement level of a parking deck at work). I expect good life from the replacement as well, given what I've experienced thus far. Keeping a jump pack in the trunk does seem to be a good idea for PHEVs since it is hard to sense 12V battery decline like you can in ICE cars (slow starting).
Point of the blanket is to keep the battery from getting too hot from engine heat. Unless someone has a drop in li ion 12v battery that has the circuitry required to manage the battery and make it act like a lead acid, the idea isn't really feasible. Li ion batteries have significantly different characteristics than lead acid, the dc-dc converter really doesn't have a li ion 12v in mind.I think this would fit... Having just replaced it, the battery tray is a little weird, but there is a padded 'blanket' that goes around the battery. I put it back on, but it seemed rather pointless and I think without it, the extra 3/8" would be available.
I am not sure why you are worried about not reaching a full charge. When ''running' the battery is the usual 14.4V, and the specs on the Weize you found say "Charge Voltage 14.4".
The terminal orientation is reversed, but you would need to adapt the terminals anyway because the Weize does not have the big 'lugs'.
Heck - If I hadn't already replaced the battery before seeing your post, I may have tried one of these !
But I am now having second thoughts about my battery capacity guestimate because of this -
We also have a 2023 Tesla. Tesla now uses a Lithium Ion battery for the low voltage systems. Hopefully it will last a long time, but it is quite expensive if it fails (I think around $800). Of course, it is only available from Tesla, and it is not simply a 2-pin device (there are other connections, precluding the use of a generic battery). In addition, it is nominally 15.5V, but rated at only 6.9 Ah. This causes some issues like the auxiliary power outlets have 15.5V which could damage electronics that you might plug in. You certainly have to be mindful of this or risk damaging something. It is a little hard to believe that the Tesla is OK with a measily 6.9 Ah battery and the Clarity needs so much more. Of course, I am not certain whether the Tesla can invoke the HV battery to charge the 15.5V one when the vehicle is off. Many unknowns there...
The Tesla battery looks like this:
It would be tempting to just try something like this: https://a.co/d/cXS65Yi as an experiment. The 18 Ah version is $52. If my 100 mA parasitic current is right, then this would only last around a week in the Clarity without driving.
MrFixit
Well-Known Member
That is exactly what some of these are !
Just not sure if the benefits outweigh the additional cost.
A Lithium battery with circuitry to “make it act like a lead acid” would be a battery that would hasten its own demise. Fortunately, most if not all, 12V Lithium batteries have a BMS that protects them from charging voltages that would be appropriate for a LA, but potentially harmful to a Lithium battery.
In the case of the Clarity, the DC/DC converter appears to limit charging voltage to 14.5-14.6 which are acceptable voltages for a Lithium battery. There no risk of a Lithium battery calling for a high current charge from an alternator, since the Clarity lacks said device.
The 12V battery is simply a source of power to start the party. Either chemistry would work. The wisest choice would be the one that is the most economical.
Just hooking up a li ion battery up to a dc-dc designed for a lead acid would hardly be a smart thing to do. Doing it properly would require a computer so that the external properties are similar to that of a 12v while ensuring the li ion cells are properly managed
Please tell us about the parameters on the converter and elaborate on how those parameters might harm a lithium battery, or conversely, how a lithium battery might harm the converter.
The dumbest move here would be to spend more on a lithium battery than a wet cell, for use in an application where a deep cycle battery is unnecessary.
Try charging a 12v (more or less 3 cell) li ion battery pack with a lead acid trickle charger (you actually would have better luck doing this with an older one, new ones are usually microproccecer controlled and typically run through very lead acid specific changeing "tricks" that would probably harm a li ion, and there is a good chance the dc-dv does a similar thing) and running it through a few charge cycles, you might get away with it for awhile, or you may kill the battery on the first charge.
Try providing the information that was requested.
Now you’re just speculating about trickle chargers after attempting to sound knowledgeable about other matters. At this point I can only surmise that you’re simply offering misinformed opinions.