Musk on sabotage

[Pushmi-Pullyu]

I think Elon is an idiot...

...and you feel free to share your opinion about that on a pro-EV forum on a more or less daily basis.

I note that you wrote a comment to an InsideEVs story where you decry those who resort to personal insult in response to other comments, yet you don't yourself refrain from doing exactly that with regards to Elon Musk.

Apparently you think that it's okay to insult someone if they're not actually a member of this forum. Well, David, a lot of people including myself don't see it that way. We don't see any significant difference between you insulting Elon Musk, and insulting us. I also don't personally see any moral or ethical difference between insulting Tesla fans and telling lies about Tesla, in an ongoing campaign to damage the reputation of a company which is genuinely trying to improve the world.

I don't expect you to agree, David, but let us at least understand just what is causing personal animosity here, and why your very negative and often counter-factual comments create such negative reactions from several forum members.

* * * * *

I see Steven Loveday posting a lot of personal comments to InsideEVS News article comment threads, yesterday and today, about trying to deal with all the personal attacks in comments there. I hope he does institute changes which will eliminate or at least sharply reduce much or most of that. But this will never stop until anti-Tesla FUDsters are no longer allowed to post outright FUD there... or here.

Let's not forget that anti-Tesla FUD, like all FUD, is a disinformation campaign. It's a deliberate, premeditated, ongoing attempt to discredit or destroy Tesla, by using lies, half-truths, cherry-picked figures, and outlier anecdotes. Not to mention conspiracy theories. It is directly antithetical to the search for truth and civil discourse. It's also directly antithetical to the purpose of InsideEVs.

So let us not pretend that FUD has as much right to be posted to comments on InsideEVs as comments which are neutral or positive toward EVs. Comments containing FUD are unwelcome and disruptive to meaningful discussion. In fact, often it appears that one of the goals of those posting anti-Tesla FUD is to disrupt meaningful discussion of EVs, and to drive people away from reading comments about them.

​

 

[David Green]

...and you feel free to share your opinion about that on a pro-EV forum on a more or less daily basis.

I note that you wrote a comment to an InsideEVs story where you decry those who resort to personal insult in response to other comments, yet you don't yourself refrain from doing exactly that with regards to Elon Musk.

Apparently you think that it's okay to insult someone if they're not actually a member of this forum. Well, David, a lot of people including myself don't see it that way. We don't see any significant difference between you insulting Elon Musk, and insulting us. I also don't personally see any moral or ethical difference between insulting Tesla fans and telling lies about Tesla, in an ongoing campaign to damage the reputation of a company which is genuinely trying to improve the world.

I don't expect you to agree, David, but let us at least understand just what is causing personal animosity here, and why your very negative and often counter-factual comments create such negative reactions from several forum members.

* * * * *

I see Steven Loveday posting a lot of personal comments to InsideEVS News article comment threads, yesterday and today, about trying to deal with all the personal attacks in comments there. I hope he does institute changes which will eliminate or at least sharply reduce much or most of that. But this will never stop until anti-Tesla FUDsters are no longer allowed to post outright FUD there... or here.

Let's not forget that anti-Tesla FUD, like all FUD, is a disinformation campaign. It's a deliberate, premeditated, ongoing attempt to discredit or destroy Tesla, by using lies, half-truths, cherry-picked figures, and outlier anecdotes. Not to mention conspiracy theories. It is directly antithetical to the search for truth and civil discourse. It's also directly antithetical to the purpose of InsideEVs.

So let us not pretend that FUD has as much right to be posted to comments on InsideEVs as comments which are neutral or positive toward EVs. Comments containing FUD are unwelcome and disruptive to meaningful discussion. In fact, often it appears that one of the goals of those posting anti-Tesla FUD is to disrupt meaningful discussion of EVs, and to drive people away from reading comments about them.

​

Thats right mr... Steven is posting because of all the personal attacks, of which you are a great offender. This is making the news feeds an uncomfortable spot for people to post, discuss, and becomes more of a battleground (your posts often attack me and others as people, and not the message). Do you notice your attacking posts against me do not contain any data or any point of discussing other then to discredit me? You can spin this as me saying "Elon is an Idiot" is the problem here, but Elon here is a figure, and not an active participant. You on the other hand are an active participant whose only knowledge is Google-fu as you stated yourself. When I post satellite photos along with my opinion on the contents, that is not disinformation, that is pretty factual with photographs to support my opinion. That is not going to damage the EV movement, to discuss an obviously very troubled company's operations. Its just factual... If you would rather bury your head in the sand, and ignore what is really going on, that is your choice, you can live with daisies and unicorns. I like to dig and find the truth....

 

[Domenick]

So, just to address the tone here: please remember, we'd like people who decide to read the threads to not have to wade through insults and insinuations. If you believe someone is "spreading FUD" (fear, uncertainty, doubt...misinformation, basically), just address the points which you believe to be incorrect.

We all have differences of opinion and Tesla is pretty much a Rorschach test, so it's likely there will be disagreements and quite likely they won't be resolved to the satisfaction of any particular party. Just because someone isn't a fan of a particular automaker, doesn't mean they're here to slow the shift to electrification. Sometimes a banana is just a banana.

Some statements here have crossed the line a bit, so just please remember that you attract more bees with honey than vinegar.


Now, game on.

 

[Domenick]

Oh yeah. Martin Tripp worked at Gigafactory1, not Fremont, so while it's interesting to see the photos, they aren't germane to Tripp's involvement.

If you want my opinion (narrator: "They don't), there's little doubt some of Tripp's claims were true, ie, there was a significant amount of scrappage, especially early on in production. I think Musk is overstating some of Tripp's actions (Tripp didn't actually say Tesla put punctured cells in cars), but I think they have to take legal action against him if the state isn't. It should be an interesting drama to watch, but I suspect ultimately Tesla will lose the case.

 

[bwilson4web]

One claim in the Tesla suit is Tripp released company data to 3D parties and Tripp has already admitted it. Damages are a separate issue pending the court case.

Had Tripp reported VINs to NHTSA or called the Fremont Fire Marshal, well that would be different.

Bob Wilson

 

[David Green]

One claim in the Tesla suit is Tripp released company data to 3D parties and Tripp has already admitted it. Damages are a separate issue pending the court case. Had Tripp reported VINs to NHTSA or called the Fremont Fire Marshal, well that would be different.

Bob Wilson

Yeah, its hard to speculate on litigation, but hopefully some good nuggets of information come out...

 

[Domenick]

One claim in the Tesla suit is Tripp released company data to 3D parties and Tripp has already admitted it. Damages are a separate issue pending the court case. Had Tripp reported VINs to NHTSA or called the Fremont Fire Marshal, well that would be different.

Bob Wilson

The release of the data to 3rd parties is a given, since that serves as the basis of his whistleblower defense. He gave materials to a Business Insider reporter that served as the basis for this article. Since he was at Gigafactory1 in Sparks, Nevada, there were no VIN numbers to be reported or reason to call the Fremont fire marshall.

 

[Pushmi-Pullyu]

I want to see you back that semi to the loading dock with all that junk.... North is worse then South.

Even the cherry-picked photos you chose don't even remotely match your description of chaos and trash and disorganization everywhere. Unsurprisingly, from an objective viewpoint this is just more evidence of a highly biased viewpoint. If those photos were the worst you could find, then things must be pretty well organized.

Considering the ongoing feverish pace of construction there, it looks to be quite spic-n-span.

I imagine things were much, much worse in the weeks before they installed the 2nd assembly line, when Tesla employees were saying that all the assembly line machines were sitting around in their crates, stuffed into nooks and crannies all over the factory, and even many in the parking lot!

​

 

[bwilson4web]

Here you go: https://fremont.gov/Directory.aspx?did=53

Staff
Name Title Email Phone
Anderson, Chad Fire Prevention Inspector Email 510-494-4277
Chase, Bruce Senior Fire Prevention Inspector Email 510-494-4274
Ferreira, Paul Senior Hazmat Inspector Email 510-494-4298
Garcia , Aaron Fire Prevention Inspector Email 510-494-4284
McInnis, Paul Deputy Fire Marshal Email 510-494-4281
Michelotti, Erika Hazmat Inspector Email 510-494-4289
Monges, Cindy Fire Prevention Inspector Email 510-494-4271
Nomany, Jacqueline Hazmat Inspector Email 510-494-4275
O'Connor, Janie Hazmat Inspector Email 510-494-4272
Swardenski, Jay Fire Marshal Email 510-494-4222​

If you really think there is a 'junk' fire issue, call them and make a complaint.

For good measure: http://cityofsparks.us/resources/departments/fire-department/

http://cityofsparks.us/resources/resource/fpb-inspections/

I have designed this pamphlet to help you prepare for your inspection. Please conduct your own inspection, prior to our visit, utilizing the following checklist, and call our office at (775) 353-2266 when you are completed. It is important to use this checklist and be ready for your inspection. Please allow a 48 hour notice for our inspection.

Thank you and good luck in your ventures.
​

Let's not forget the safety issue:
https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/VehicleComplaint/

YOUR COMPLAINT IS IMPORTANT

LET'S GET STARTED!
COMPLETE this 5-step form -- it takes about 5 minutes, and have the following information handy:

• Email Address -- To file a complaint without one or for other assistance, please call the Vehicle Safety Hotline (Toll-Free: 1-888-327-4236 / Hearing Impaired (TTY): 1-800-424-9153).
• Your VIN
  What's this?
  
  
• Make
• Model
• Year of your vehicle

• Any documentation you have related to your complaint, such as photos or a police report

Belly up the bar and file a complaint.

Bob Wilson

 

[Pushmi-Pullyu]

If you really think there is a 'junk' fire issue, call them and make a complaint.

Thanks, Bob!

Reminds me of some of the anti-Tesla FUD claims and conspiracy theories posted on the old TheEEStory forum and elsewhere, where the FUDsters would darkly suggest or insinuate that Tesla was faking its production numbers*. Occasionally one of the more enlightened members of the forum would get exasperated with all the B.S. and say "If you really do think Tesla is faking its financial statements, then by all means file a complaint with the SEC -- and stop wasting your time posting such accusations on this forum!"

*Isn't that same thing the latest fake news from Tesla FUDsters? That what's his name, the recently caught accused saboteur who claims to be a "whistleblower", is reporting Tesla is faking its production numbers? "Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose."

​

 

[Pushmi-Pullyu]

Do you notice your attacking posts against me do not contain any data or any point of discussing other then to discredit me?

Your comments to IEVs news articles rarely if ever have any supposedly factual or logical content which is worthy of taking the time to refute. They are mostly just repetitive and discredited FUD you copied from other Tesla haters.

But it is rather odd that you make this complaint about someone -- that is, me -- whose posts to InsideEVS News articles regularly have their assertions supported with relevant links, far more than the average contributor. How about you? Not so much, hmmm?

...Elon here is a figure, and not an active participant.

Your mother and your sister, if you have one, are not active participants here, either. Does that mean it's okay for me to slur their names and sully their reputations with lies, innuendo, gross exaggerations, and conspiracy theories, as you do with Elon Musk? Hmmm?

When I post satellite photos along with my opinion on the contents, that is not disinformation, that is pretty factual with photographs to support my opinion.

It's FUD, period. Your intent in posting those and making exaggerated and misleading comments about the cherry-picked photos was, and is, to damage Tesla's reputation. Nothing more and nothing less.

If that was not actually your intent, if you really do believe that is a concern, then do contact the appropriate fire marshal's office. But of course you won't, because that's not your agenda.

I like to dig and find the truth....

No, you like to smear the good name of Tesla Inc. and Elon Musk. Whether or not anything you post happens to have any truth to it is entirely irrelevant to you.

Your agenda is very obviously not to support the EV movement. Don't pee on our legs and try to tell us it's raining.

​

 

[Pushmi-Pullyu]

It should be an interesting drama to watch, but I suspect ultimately Tesla will lose the case.

That depends on just what Tesla's objectives are in filing suit. As has been pointed out, Tesla might be most interested in the "discovery" process, whereby they might be able to find out who he was feeding stolen info to and/or who else might be involved. (Pure unfounded speculation: Is this part of the UAW's surprisingly active and virulent campaign to attack and discredit Tesla?)

From Tesla's viewpoint, losing the court case might be an example of losing the battle but winning the war. For example: In suing Fisker, Tesla lost the case, but arguably won the public relations battle. If they had it to do all over again, would they? Very probably yes!

​

 

[Pushmi-Pullyu]

If you believe someone is "spreading FUD" (fear, uncertainty, doubt...misinformation, basically), just address the points which you believe to be incorrect.

There is a very important distinction between misinformation, which is merely information which is wrong, and disinformation.

Disinformation: false information deliberately and often covertly spread (as by the planting of rumors) in order to influence public opinion or obscure the truth
​

There's a big difference between comments based on ignorance, and saying things you know not to be true with the intent of discrediting or damaging the reputation of some person or group of persons, or some cause or some political position... or some company.

When someone persists in posting untruths and misleading or outlier cherry-picked "facts", figures, and fake news, even after they have had the truth pointed out to them repeatedly, and when it's all negative untruths or misleading info directed at one issue, or at a person or group of people, or at one company, then that's not misinformation. It's disinformation.

And pointing out that one single bit of disinformation is wrong is generally pointless, because it's never just one bit of FUD, it's an ongoing campaign. Even if someone takes the time to write a refutation well-supported by facts and/or figures, the FUDster still wins... and he knows it. Here's how:

The “Gish Gallop” is a well-established method of outmaneuvering rhetorical opponents with an overwhelming onslaught of dubious arguments. Also known in debate circles as “spreading,” its curious name is an homage to Duane Gish, a biochemist and creationist who used it to great effect in evolution debates through the 1980s and 1990s.

The Gallop works by leveraging two basic tendencies in human reasoning. First, it’s easier and faster to make a false claim than it is to disprove one. Second, if an opponent fails to disprove every single one of the spurious statements you state, you can claim victory on the leftovers.
​

(Source here. A highly recommended read, both informative and fun -- especially if you're a Pastafarian; a follower of the Flying Spaghetti Monster! )

You can clearly see this tactic in use in this very discussion thread, as well as -- for example -- pretty much every discussion of fuel cell cars. Sadly, it's a pretty successful albeit thoroughly dishonest debate tactic.

 

[bwilson4web]

After reading this:

The “Gish Gallop” is a well-established method of outmaneuvering rhetorical opponents with an overwhelming onslaught of dubious arguments. Also known in debate circles as “spreading,” its curious name is an homage to Duane Gish, a biochemist and creationist who used it to great effect in evolution debates through the 1980s and 1990s.
. . .

I was reminded of:


Bob Wilson

 

[Pushmi-Pullyu]

I was reminded of [Monty Python's "Argument Clinic" skit].

Almost infinitely more memorable! That's definitely among Monty Python's "top 10".

Contrariwise, I had not run across the term "Gish Gallop" until researching the topic for the post I made above. I knew the "bury them in a blizzard of B.S. arguments" was an underhanded debate tactic successfully used by Creationists, but I wasn't aware of the term.

 

[Pushmi-Pullyu]

In the latest chapter in the sensationalized soap opera about accused Tesla saboteur Martin Tripp, Elon has tweeted that Trip took money from Linette Lopez, a Business Insider reporter, in exchange for Tripp feeding confidential info from Tesla to that reporter, presumably in violation of the NDA which Tripp signed when he accepted the job at Tesla Inc. (Please note these are all allegations solely from Elon Musk. So far as I know, none of those allegations have been supported by any other source, nor substantiated by evidence verified by any neutral party. The principle of "presumed innocent until proven guilty" should apply here.)

Elon also said that Business Insider published "several false articles" about Tesla, apparently all written by Lopez.

From CNBC: "Elon Musk lashes out at the media, again"

Meanwhile, just yesterday (July 4) Clean Technica published an extremely scathing article about Business Insider's reporting on Tesla Inc., claiming... well, put on your flame retardant suit and read it for yourself:

From the same team that brought you the unsubstantiated hype about Tesla’s demise… From the creators of the overblown stories of each and every Tesla that ever caught on fire, may have caught on fire, looked like it could have caught on fire or was potentially, allegedly parked in a location where the sunshine could, on at least one planet in the universe, result in a fire… We bring you a story from Business Insider that frames up Tesla as a terrible company because it ditched the “brake and roll” test for the Model 3.

The BI article comes with a set of leaked photos of Tesla’s production management system for one of the Model 3 general assembly lines. BI claims that Tesla has abandoned the “critical” brake and roll test for the Model 3, which “ensures the car is correctly aligned.” The FUD is strong with BI this week, as it takes a single fact and extrapolates it to the nth degree just to pull in a few clicks...
​

From Clean Technica: "Business Insider Resorts To FUD As Tesla Streamlines Model 3 General Assembly Lines — #Pravduh"

 

[Domenick]

Haven't had a chance to read that, but I have noticed the absence of auto journos coming to her defense this time around. At least after Roadshow published Tesla changed its testing regimen for the Model 3, and that's OK, which kind of exposes the shoddy reporting in the Business Insider piece. Which, incidentally, may be at least partly responsible for Tesla shares losing 7% of their value on the day it was published. Basically, billions of dollars.

I'm not sure why but this particular reporter seems to have a "thing" for Musk, which is pretty evident when you read her opinion piece, Elon Musk doesn't care about you.

 

[David Green]

Haven't had a chance to read that, but I have noticed the absence of auto journos coming to her defense this time around. At least after Roadshow published Tesla changed its testing regimen for the Model 3, and that's OK, which kind of exposes the shoddy reporting in the Business Insider piece. Which, incidentally, may be at least partly responsible for Tesla shares losing 7% of their value on the day it was published. Basically, billions of dollars.

I'm not sure why but this particular reporter seems to have a "thing" for Musk, which is pretty evident when you read her opinion piece, Elon Musk doesn't care about you.

Many people are annoyed by Musk, as he often acts like some orange headed guy living on the east coast. I find his comedy of errors rather comical, its not often you see the leader of a multi billion dollar company make such a fuss, and whine the media is out to get them.... I can only remember one other case of this, and that other guy is living in some white colored house in DC.

 

[Pushmi-Pullyu]

Many people are annoyed by Musk...

Let me fix that for you:

Many people are annoyed by jealous of Musk.

And a few -- like you -- are almost insanely jealous. It's also rather amusing -- not to mention tone deaf -- to see you complain about someone else "whining" in the middle of your own whining.

​

 

[Pushmi-Pullyu]

Another new chapter in this soap opera!

* * * * *

Quoting the latest article:

The former Tesla employee who was fired and then sued by the electric vehicle automaker has filed a formal whistleblower tip to the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission alleging the company has misled investors and put its customers at risk.

Martin Tripp has retained Meissner Associates, a whistleblower, securities, investment fraud and employment law firm to represent him before the SEC. Tesla did not respond to questions about the whistleblower tip.
​

Source -- Tech Crunch.com: "Ex-Tesla worker makes it official and blows the whistle to SEC"

More info at CNN Money.com:
"Tesla 'whistleblower' tells SEC company misled investors and put customers at risk"

* * * * *

My opinion (please note: opinion, not fact) on this latest chapter:

I guess Mr. Tripp's new lawyer pointed out to him that if he was gonna claim to be a whistleblower, and claim that Tesla is faking its production numbers *cough* *cough* ....sorry, that bit of Tesla bashing FUD is very old and rather dusty by now... then he should file a complaint about Tesla with the SEC.

Well, better a belated pretense to be a whistleblower than none at all, right?

​