How Many Public EV Fast Chargers Do We Need In The US?
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beerhecht
Member
I don't use the DC fast chargers very often, but I know that I would definitely make more road trips if a reliable network of chargers existed. In my neck of the woods, most DC fast chargers are at least 50 miles apart, so it becomes a big problem when one is out of service. If I could just stop at a Pilot or Buc ee's, or even a rest area with a Level-2 charger, I think it would make road-tripping a much better experience.
Carsten Haase
Well-Known Member
I've used exactly one DCFC to get my MINI home from the dealer but that's just because it's the only useful DCFC that's in range. I would have used public chargers around 20 times in the past two years if they existed (roughly half as often as I used to go to gas stations)
For chargers vs gas stations
- Chargers take longer so will have less turnover. For the same traffic volume you'd need more chargers than gas pumps.
- EVs have less range so they'd have to charge more frequently than filling up with gas
- Only ~63% of housing has a garage or carport, the rest would need to rely completely on public charging.
I think the number of fast chargers will be more about spacing than demand. Getting enough that the general public doesn't have to plan charging stops for trips will probably mean more capacity than required.
AndysComputer
Well-Known Member
Other than to see how it would be, we have no need for DCFC for our SE as we bought it for local use and it can go anywhere we want.
Our Tesla is the road tripping machine, it’s covered 18k miles in 18 months and 2/3rds of its charging has been at DCFC.
In my view, today, for that kind of usage you should be buying a Tesla. The non Tesla charging is a joke. I would be interested in a couple of CCS cars but no way would I buy one regardless of how good the car is.
We just took a 550 mile round trip from Dallas to Houston and within 0.5 mile of that route here are the number of DCFC locations with at least one chargers greater than 100kW:
Tesla: 15
CCS: 4
Total number of chargers:
Tesla: 200
CCS: 14
I didn’t count units under 100kW as they’re not practical for road tripping in a timely manner. If I did, you can double up on the number of units but that’s all.
if I counted units further from the route, say within 2 miles, the discrepancy between the two systems gets worse, not better.
If I subtract the number of non working units as reported in PlugShare the discrepancy gets even worse.
if I subtract the number of units charging slowly due to a fault the discrepancy gets even worse.
People talk about how Tesla had a more reliable and plentiful network but I don’t think the scale of the difference is being well communicated.
No, we won’t need as many DCFC chargers in urban areas as we do gas stations, but we will need at least as many on inter urban routes.
Our Tesla is the road tripping machine, it’s covered 18k miles in 18 months and 2/3rds of its charging has been at DCFC.
In my view, today, for that kind of usage you should be buying a Tesla. The non Tesla charging is a joke. I would be interested in a couple of CCS cars but no way would I buy one regardless of how good the car is.
We just took a 550 mile round trip from Dallas to Houston and within 0.5 mile of that route here are the number of DCFC locations with at least one chargers greater than 100kW:
Tesla: 15
CCS: 4
Total number of chargers:
Tesla: 200
CCS: 14
I didn’t count units under 100kW as they’re not practical for road tripping in a timely manner. If I did, you can double up on the number of units but that’s all.
if I counted units further from the route, say within 2 miles, the discrepancy between the two systems gets worse, not better.
If I subtract the number of non working units as reported in PlugShare the discrepancy gets even worse.
if I subtract the number of units charging slowly due to a fault the discrepancy gets even worse.
People talk about how Tesla had a more reliable and plentiful network but I don’t think the scale of the difference is being well communicated.
No, we won’t need as many DCFC chargers in urban areas as we do gas stations, but we will need at least as many on inter urban routes.
JonR
Well-Known Member
But then you would own a Tesla.
Mini max charge rate is 50 kW.
https://insideevs.com/news/586482/mini-cooper-se-fast-charging-analysis/
The best option for road trips is a hybrid. The best option for in-town driving is an electric car and if you then decide to have two cars, then range of 100 miles is plenty on your electric car. If you only afford or want 1 car, then a hybrid is the best option.
AndysComputer
Well-Known Member
I think if you can afford a decent range and charging BEV and have chargers where you need to go (per my post on Tesla network above) a BEV is just as good, in my experience, for long trips. I have had 10 hour days in the Tesla doing the same route that took 9hr 40mins in our gas car so I see no reason to say that no BEV is as suitable as an ICE or PHEV for long distance. Or even that they are the best. But… it depends on the car and the chargers….
If you can’t afford a BEV with suitable specs and with a suitable network (which today imho means some form of Tesla) then yes, a PHEV is the way to go.
What freaks me out on those is the cost of maintain them long term. I’m also curious how many people actually plug them in… and for that reason they should not be eligible for any government incentives.
The price of cars like the Bolt mean no need to buy a PHEV, or it would if GM hadn’t nerfed the charging speed. Should have been 100kW…
If you can’t afford a BEV with suitable specs and with a suitable network (which today imho means some form of Tesla) then yes, a PHEV is the way to go.
What freaks me out on those is the cost of maintain them long term. I’m also curious how many people actually plug them in… and for that reason they should not be eligible for any government incentives.
The price of cars like the Bolt mean no need to buy a PHEV, or it would if GM hadn’t nerfed the charging speed. Should have been 100kW…
On the Clarity PHEV forum, there is only one member who reports he never plugs in--and he drives an extraordinary number of miles, so he's missing out on the Clarity's gas-saving HV mode but he may not have a place to plug in. I filled my Clarity's massive 7-gallon tank just once last year, with all the rest of our driving being electrically powered.
AndysComputer
Well-Known Member
I suspect anyone who frequents car forums is invested enough in the concept to do so.
The average Joe will likely just pocket the cash saving on the purchase of the car and never bother…
Hopefully I’m wrong…
The average Joe will likely just pocket the cash saving on the purchase of the car and never bother…
Hopefully I’m wrong…
SameGuy
Well-Known Member
I think the PHEV sweet spot for owners would be somewhere around 60 miles of BEV range, which, in a car the size of the F60 SE, would need a pretty heavy ~25 kWh battery. The problem inherent in PHEVs is that in either mode they must lug around hundreds of pounds of extra mass that isn’t contributing to vehicles’ mobility — which makes the other mode less efficient as a result.
MrSnrub
Well-Known Member
I was having a convo the other day with my bro inlaw. I told him L2 6.5kwh dispensers at grocery stores etc are pretty useless. They get installed to show people “we care” but in reality unless you are inside for over an hour they aren’t doing much.
24-50kwh dcfc will soon be the minimum requirement. 24kw dispensers are really coming down in price
24-50kwh dcfc will soon be the minimum requirement. 24kw dispensers are really coming down in price
MrSnrub
Well-Known Member
best for a road trip is a Tesla but supercharging prices aren’t cheap but the network IS there and reliable.
you could do a road trip in a mini but would require planning and 4 charges for me to get to NYC according to ABRP. I think I can get there in 3 but it’s very mountainous route. The nice part is there are a few Tesla superchargers open to all cars along the way. 50kw which it rarely stays at for long will mean 25-30min top ups. I’ll hit 46-48kwh for 8-10 mins then it goes to 36.. 32…
Access to charging should not be a partisan political issue “us vs them” We should be installing as much as we can everywhere we can. When there are legit 2 DCFC between Montreal and Ottawa that’s a problem…
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Jim In Tucson
Well-Known Member
I’ll drop in a plug for FreeWire, the DCFC charger that’s powered by 240 volts. So, no need for expensive 440 volt infrastructure upgrades in order to offer 150 KW charging.
Sent from my iPhone using Inside EVs
Sent from my iPhone using Inside EVs
polyphonic
Well-Known Member
As many as it takes to match the capability of gas cars. If you're never DC charging that means you're stuck within a 60 mile radius of home. Wouldn't work for me.
SameGuy
Well-Known Member
Quite frankly, we need more L2 charging infrastructure in cities. DCFC is fine every 50 miles along interstates, but the biggest hurdle to jump to an electrified future will be making sure to get power to all these new cars belonging to city dwellers who do not have driveways or indoor parking. Fast-charging 50 or 100 times a year will lead to a lot of disposable cars.
Minicris
Member
There is one a few blocks from my favorite coffee shop that has free charging. I sometimes plug in when I'm at the coffee shop. I've never seen another car plugged in at it. An anti electric car friend asked me why it's free and I said because it's too slow to be of any use
Puppethead
Well-Known Member
I rely on a nearby to work grocery L2 charger (free) in the winter to give me the boost I need to handle the cold winter range hit. I do hang out for an hour and get about 10% SoC which is just the boost I need. So I'm all for arbitrary L2 charging at any place of commerce. But worst case scenario is I'd sit in my car and read or something, the beauty of EVs is you can hang out inside your vehicle with the heat and radio going while charging.
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MrSnrub
Well-Known Member
This was the entire reasoning behind Vinfast battery subscription.
where I live we are actually really over represented on L2 and DCFC. Being in the city it’s pretty wild. Then we went to Ughhh fairview on Sunday and nothing expect two L2 and one 50kw flo… meanwhile massive suerpcharger
SameGuy
Well-Known Member
Yeah, they’re better in destinations (like the Tesla L2s), such as malls with diverse shops and services (like Vaudreuil) where I can plug in and visit three of four establishments and even get lunch. Two hours on a 6.5 kW ChargePoint and I’ve gone from 30 to 70%. Usually when I go to Plattsburgh I’ll plug in to the free L2 outside Market32, cross the lot to Lowes for an hour or so, then come back and do my grocery shopping. Then the stop at the EA station at Sam’s Club is quicker and cheaper.