Off-topic discussion about possible Tesla-hate

[Earl]

I'm sorry to see so much hatred against Tesla. I guess all of the negative propaganda against the disrupter has paid off.
I highly recommend that, before writing a Tesla off, you swing by your closest Tesla Supercharger. You'll undoubtedly find a few there and you can ask real Tesla owners what kinds of real problems they've faced instead of just reading the media.
Most Tesla owners on forums are either rabid fanbois or trolls but most Tesla drivers are out driving around enjoying their rides. I'm an EV fan and am on this forum to try to help newcomers, with any kind of EV, to end their oil dependence. I try to counter a lot of the BS which is sewn, trying to prevent EVs from disrupting the massive investments in ICE vehicles. While I see Tesla as by far the best. In the past few years, some of the others have seemed to have become viable. I'm just disappointed with this Kona news.
I just had my first Tesla maintenance in 3.3 years and 104K miles. It was a pre-emptive replacement of the 12v accessory battery and my Mobile Charging Cord. The car told me the battery needed to be replaced, I never experienced any problems. Even though I'm way out of warranty, they charged me nothing. A Tesla technician came to my house in a Model S converted to be a mobile repair facility with tool boxes replacing the rear seat.
Additionally, the safety of the Teslas is far superior than any other car ever built. My brother was T-boned in his Model Y by a minivan blowing through a red light at over 55 mph last month. He walked away (car totaled). In any other similar sized car, he probably would have been killed.
I know one person who rejected his Model Y because of cosmetic issues like have been reported. They got him another car that was satisfactory. These issues, like all with Tesla, have improved though.
I've driven over 1100 miles in one day using Superchargers and crossed the USA in 3 days. On road trips, I see Teslas from all states at all Superchargers. I see almost no one at CCS charging stations. That blatant asymmetry tells a lot. Teslas are great road-trip cars. With autopilot, they are better IMHO, than an ICE. The only downside vs ICE is that you need to have your meals where there are Superchargers in order to minimize your travel time, thus restricting your meal options a bit. Fortunately, there are many Superchargers and most are well sited with good facilities nearby.
This total recall just seems all too reminiscent of my past EV-1 experience.

 

[SeanH]

I'm sorry to see so much hatred against Tesla. I guess all of the negative propaganda against the disrupter has paid off.
I highly recommend that, before writing a Tesla off, you swing by your closest Tesla Supercharger. You'll undoubtedly find a few there and you can ask real Tesla owners what kinds of real problems they've faced instead of just reading the media.
Most Tesla owners on forums are either rabid fanbois or trolls but most Tesla drivers are out driving around enjoying their rides. I'm an EV fan and am on this forum to try to help newcomers, with any kind of EV, to end their oil dependence. I try to counter a lot of the BS which is sewn, trying to prevent EVs from disrupting the massive investments in ICE vehicles. While I see Tesla as by far the best. In the past few years, some of the others have seemed to have become viable. I'm just disappointed with this Kona news.
I just had my first Tesla maintenance in 3.3 years and 104K miles. It was a pre-emptive replacement of the 12v accessory battery and my Mobile Charging Cord. The car told me the battery needed to be replaced, I never experienced any problems. Even though I'm way out of warranty, they charged me nothing. A Tesla technician came to my house in a Model S converted to be a mobile repair facility with tool boxes replacing the rear seat.
Additionally, the safety of the Teslas is far superior than any other car ever built. My brother was T-boned in his Model Y by a minivan blowing through a red light at over 55 mph last month. He walked away (car totaled). In any other similar sized car, he probably would have been killed.
I know one person who rejected his Model Y because of cosmetic issues like have been reported. They got him another car that was satisfactory. These issues, like all with Tesla, have improved though.
I've driven over 1100 miles in one day using Superchargers and crossed the USA in 3 days. On road trips, I see Teslas from all states at all Superchargers. I see almost no one at CCS charging stations. That blatant asymmetry tells a lot. Teslas are great road-trip cars. With autopilot, they are better IMHO, than an ICE. The only downside vs ICE is that you need to have your meals where there are Superchargers in order to minimize your travel time, thus restricting your meal options a bit. Fortunately, there are many Superchargers and most are well sited with good facilities nearby.
This total recall just seems all too reminiscent of my past EV-1 experience.
View attachment 12105

I don't have "hatred" against Teslas, I just don't want to own one and I feel like they have done some pretty shady things in the past.
I have a bunch of experience driving them dating back to 2015. My company owned several and I was able to drive them frequently.
My biggest issue is I really, really don't like the Model 3/Y control scheme. The Model S was ok (though I found that data on the bottom third of the screen was really too low and caused me to take my eyes off the road), but the minimalist approach of the 3/Y is really hard for me to deal with. I want a windshield wiper stalk. I want headlight controls. I want physical HVAC buttons. I want physical volume controls.
These are all personal reasons that I don't expect everyone else to agree with (and they aren't unique to Tesla).

The initial quality issues on the Model 3 and Y are well documented, and I'm not just talking about body panels not fitting correctly. Seat belts not being attached properly and roofs falling off is really not acceptable. Those things are probably fixed now, but it doesn't make me want to support a company that put those things out into the public.

And speaking of putting things into the public, I am not a fan of charging people $10,000 for "Full Self Driving" and then not delivering for years. Yes, Autopilot is a pretty good Level 2 system. Or at least it is now. When we got the first cars in 2015 it liked to try and take left turns off of the apex of bridges.
At any rate, they have more and more competition for competent Level 2 systems.

I also know a lot more about questionable engineering choices they have made. Maybe soon they'll fully own up to using a piece of flash the wrong way and bricking the center console after a certain number of power-ons (and then having the gall to claim that an ECU is a "wear part").

The Supercharger network is awesome... for some use cases. I drove a Model S from Pittsburgh to Detroit. The Supercharger network made this possible, but it didn't really make it enjoyable. We had to stop twice so that we didn't reach the hotel with not enough battery to get back to the next Supercharger. The first time, we had lunch while it charged. That worked out. The second time, we sat around staring at our phones for 30 minutes. That was less cool. In the end, stopping for 30 minutes every 2-2.5 hours adds up. Enough so, that we took our PHEV XC90s for Detroit trips after that (those things have tiny gas tanks, but are much quicker to fill up).
I've never used a DC charger on my Kona except to test it out once. The extra time on a trip just isn't worth it to me and we are a 2-car household, so we take the gas car.

I'm glad Tesla exists and many people love them. I don't.

 

[NRH]

I don't see hatred for Tesla either. Some people like them, others don't. Seeing people interpret "I choose not to buy a Tesla" as hatred speaks to an odd sort of devotion to the brand that I don't really get. I considered a Model 3, but the numbers just weren't competitive against the Kona. I paid way less than I would have for a Tesla with comparable specs, and I couldn't be happier with the Kona.

 

[R P]

Well, I certainly don't expect Earl to admit any wrong or bad about Tesla. But they are still rated poor on quality and reliability. Even Elon Musk just admitted that their radar based Autopilot is not so good and will be replaced by a camera system like other auto makers use for their driver assist features.
https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-best-car-brands-ranking-consumer-reports-jd-power-2021-2
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/25/tesla-ditching-radar-for-autopilot-in-model-3-model-y.html
https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/te...ounty-deputys-suv/QIG4TLZWVVDXFDN2XTRZCMZ7D4/
https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/new...-loss-on-older-model-s-model-x-evs/ar-AAKl55W
And unlike Hyundai, Tesla refuses to replace batteries or compensate those affected.

 

[Toolworker]

I test drive a Tesla every time I switch models. They didn't handle as well as a Volt in 2014, and they sure didn't handle as well as the Kona in 2019.

That's why I didn't consider them as an alternative for my plans after the buyback (the subject of this thread).

 

[doggyworld]

Even Elon Musk just admitted that their radar based Autopilot is not so good and will be replaced by a camera system like other auto makers use for their driver assist features.
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/25/tesla-ditching-radar-for-autopilot-in-model-3-model-y.html

Tesla is actually not replacing the radar.. they are removing the radar all together and just going with cameras that they already have on the cars to reduce cost. I don't really agree with this as I think more sensors are better in order to get more data, but I guess they seem to think just AI vision is enough.

 

[Earl]

SeanH
Thanks for taking the time to consider and share your experiences and opinions of Tesla. You are wrong in a few places but I hope to respectfully address everything.

My biggest issue is I really, really don't like the Model 3/Y control scheme. The Model S was ok (though I found that data on the bottom third of the screen was really too low and caused me to take my eyes off the road), but the minimalist approach of the 3/Y is really hard for me to deal with.

This is a legitimate personal preference situation. Having had an MG with the speedometer, gauges, and controls to the right of the wheel, just like the Mini Cooper, I have no problem with the concept. My eyes never come off the road though: that is a complete misnomer.
You're mistaken with some of your complaints. Knowing the truth would give you more choices and help your credibility. You are right about half the time though. With the Model 3/Y"

I want a windshield wiper stalk.

This is a falsity created by, then amplified by critics and the ignorant. If you push in on the end of the turn signal stalk (has a standard icon of a windshield washer on it), the windshield wiper comes on. If you push hard, the washer comes on.

I want headlight controls.

The headlight never turns off. I do admit that having to go to the touch screen to go to parking-light when approaching a security gate is a bit of a pain, however, most times, there's a line that autopilot is tracking so it isn't hard or unsafe to hit the screen control. The problems are when approaching the gate late at night when nobody is there and you need to go to parking-lights while moving toward the gate. I generally slow down a lot, to be safe, turn to parking-lights only, then proceed.

I want physical HVAC buttons.

The automatic temperature control of the HVAC is fine with me but others in my family who like to blow warm or cold air do have trouble with this and, perhaps tactile controls would help them.

I want physical volume controls

You're mistaken here: The left scroll wheel on the steering wheel is a tactile volume control.

Those things are probably fixed now, but it doesn't make me want to support a company that put those things out into the public

Your loss then. Mistakes happen. Tesla has made many of them in their efforts to reduce costs and improve performance. They have fixed them though.

I am not a fan of charging people $10,000 for "Full Self Driving" and then not delivering for years.

They've always institutionally claimed that the money would deliver it when it is available. One has always had to sign an agreement acknowledging that it is not available now. They tell the truth. I haven't chosen to pay for it because I knew it would be a long time and I'd rather save my money for other pro-EV efforts.

At any rate, they have more and more competition for competent Level 2 systems

More power to the others. It's all good. Tesla, however, has a whole lot more data than anyone else though. If you know anything about machine learning, the more sample space you have, the faster you can converge. Tesla even customers willing to pay to help train their systems but, those who don't want to pay for it don't have to. Freedom of choice isn't all bad.

Maybe soon they'll fully own up to using a piece of flash the wrong way and bricking the center console after a certain number of power-ons (and then having the gall to claim that an ECU is a "wear part")

IMHO, this was a pretty bad screw up by Tesla. Agreed. They made a technical mistake, then blew it with their response. Hardly a capital crime but understandable if it drives you away.

. . . so that we didn't reach the hotel with not enough battery to get back to the next Supercharger

This is just a teething problem. In the long run hotels will have charging stations. Some folks clearly aren't meant to be pioneers though.

The second time, we sat around staring at our phones for 30 minutes. That was less cool. In the end, stopping for 30 minutes every 2-2.5 hours adds up

What version of Model S did you have? There is night and day difference between the old Model S (especially the Model S 75) and the Model 3 Long Range in the charging time. I seldom spend more than about 20 minutes charging and, for a short 300 mile trip like Pittsburgh to Detroit, I'd only stop once, for about 10 minutes in a Model 3 LR. You have to use the right tool for the right job and know how to use it. It is certainly cheaper overall, to buy a slightly larger battery for your Model S/X or 3/Y than have to keep an ICE (especially an expensive XC90) just for infrequent trips.

I'm glad Tesla exists and many people love them. I don't.

I'm glad there are people who are willing to give other EVs a try. I had a Leaf for 105K miles (nieces and nephews have it now) and my wife has a Volt. I just hope that not too many, with anti-Tesla mentalities, go to ICE when they find the offerings by those who don't want to make EVs, don't live up to their needs or desires.
It particularly bothers me when some of your criteria, which would be understandable, are based on wrong information.
Thanks for sharing: It gave me a chance to share a couple of truths.

 

[SeanH]

I hope to respectfully address everything.

This may have been your intention, but you didn't succeed. Your post reads as incredibly condescending.
You frame my concerns as falsehoods just because you don't share them.

My eyes never come off the road though: that is a complete misnomer.

Congratulations. As I said, I have driven many, many hours in a Model S and this was a problem for me. It isn't a "misnomer" [def: a name that is incorrectly or unsuitably applied]. Telling me that something I experienced as a problem isn't, is insulting gaslighting.

If you push in on the end of the turn signal stalk (has a standard icon of a windshield washer on it), the windshield wiper comes on. If you push hard, the washer comes on.

This is not the level of control I want over the windshield wipers. Every other car I have ever owned has had control of the speed (including control of the periodicity) on the wiper stalk. The Model 3 doesn't. This level of control may be ok for you, but it is not ok for me.

The headlight never turns off. I do admit that having to go to the touch screen to go to parking-light when approaching a security gate is a bit of a pain, however, most times, there's a line that autopilot is tracking so it isn't hard or unsafe to hit the screen control. The problems are when approaching the gate late at night when nobody is there and you need to go to parking-lights while moving toward the gate. I generally slow down a lot, to be safe, turn to parking-lights only, then proceed.

As you said, there are times when I want to turn the headlights on and off manually. For me, this is frustrating.

You're mistaken here: The left scroll wheel on the steering wheel is a tactile volume control.

I missed this on my test drive several years ago. Can this be mapped to something else?

Your loss then. Mistakes happen. Tesla has made many of them in their efforts to reduce costs and improve performance. They have fixed them though.

Perhaps. But this isn't some specific Tesla hate. I'm not giving Hyundai a pass again either.

They tell the truth.

No, no they don't. Trust me, I have professionally followed their self-driving progress very closely. Where was the cross-country drive in 2018? Where are all the self-driving Tesla Ubers that were promised in 2019?
I am very, very familiar with missing deadlines on self-driving, but I wasn't charging members of the public $10,000 each the whole time.

It's all good. Tesla, however, has a whole lot more data than anyone else though. If you know anything about machine learning, the more sample space you have, the faster you can converge.

I know a lot about machine learning for self driving. It was my job.
I can tell you first of all that more data is not the same as better data. Separating the "good" data from the "bad" data is incredibly labor intensive. Training on poorly curated data can easily create weird overfits. Particularly, you need to train and test the system on unlikely events and you need to comb through all the data for those events. And in order to actually prove the system is safe, you need to show that your testing has enough specific coverage of scenarios.
Also, I've often seen it sighted that Tesla has "lots of data". I always wonder how they get it. I don't remember off the top of my head whether their 2.0 system has 8 or 12 cameras, but each of them is at least 1-2MP. That's a lot of data per second to send over LTE from hundreds of thousands of cars, even if you only send interventions. And you don't want to overly compress it because that will screw up your learning.

If you know anything about machine learning, the more sample space you have, the faster you can converge.

I do know about machine learning, and I greatly disagree with this statement.

In the long run hotels will have charging stations. Some folks clearly aren't meant to be pioneers though.

Why stoop to insult? Your point was that Superchargers are great for road trips, and my point was that they work sometimes. Arguing that they may work better in the future is really beside the point.

What version of Model S did you have? There is night and day difference between the old Model S (especially the Model S 75) and the Model 3 Long Range in the charging time.

Model S P90D

I seldom spend more than about 20 minutes charging and, for a short 300 mile trip like Pittsburgh to Detroit, I'd only stop once, for about 10 minutes in a Model 3 LR. You have to use the right tool for the right job and know how to use it.

Again, we had to stop because we needed enough power to get to the client the next day and then back to the Supercharger to continue home. A quick search on ABRP will show that you need to stop twice in a Model S to do that trip.
Even in a Model Y Long Range, ABRP tells me to stop twice on the way in order to have enough for the return trip.

It is certainly cheaper overall, to buy a slightly larger battery for your Model S/X or 3/Y than have to keep an ICE (especially an expensive XC90) just for infrequent trips.

Sure, I wouldn't advocate having an ICE car parked in your driveway for once a quarter trips. If you were a one-car household, then you could rent a car for this purpose (or fly). For me, my family has to own a second car anyway, so the other one can be an ICE.

It particularly bothers me when some of your criteria, which would be understandable, are based on wrong information.
Thanks for sharing: It gave me a chance to share a couple of truths.

I count one true mistake, which was that you could control the volume on the steering wheel.

Your big issue is treating your opinions as though everyone else should agree. I presented my perspective for me.

 

[Earl]

Seeing people interpret "I choose not to buy a Tesla" as hatred speaks to an odd sort of devotion to the brand that I don't really get.

I understand the confusion a bit. The issues come when those who "chose not to buy a Tesla" start listing their reasons.
I guess the problem is that what one reads about with Teslas and what most Tesla owners experience most, if not all, of the time, are so diametrically opposed.
Clearly, the majority of the news media and the click farms that pose as news media dig for and amplify bad stuff about Tesla. It becomes hard to tell whether forum posters who parrot the bad stuff are intentionally spreading it or just naively playing into their hands. Most of us just are saddened to see people buy these other cars because their money could go so much farther and they wouldn't be giving EVs such a bad reputation.
Tesla is giving us an alternative to ICE. Many of us see that as a good thing despite their warts and blemishes. The ICE manufacturers are reluctantly coming along while dragging their feet as much as possible. While this is logical, given their investment in and comfort with ICE technology, it is not appreciated by those of us who want an alternative to oil dependence.
Tesla drivers, however, just blissfully drive everywhere they want, easily, and comfortably. Having owned other EVs (Leaf and Volt), I've been appalled at other fellow drivers of such EVs rationalizations about how easy it is to live within the limitations of their cars. This includes: ICE Rentals on weekends (not sustainable if all cars are EVs), "I always drive slowly", I like to take time stopping a lot when traveling, I take my ICE on trips (ignoring the cost to own and maintain an ICE), "I fly on long trips so I don't need much range", etc. In reality, they are good for some things but have severe limitation that Teslas don't.

 

[Shark]

Earl, I'm curious why you are posting here. Do you own a Kona EV or are contemplating buying one? Not suggesting you don't have every right to post here, just trying to understand your motivations and point of view.

I don't own a Tesla but have three family members who do, so I've seen the positives and negatives, just like with any other car.

After watching my family members' experiences with their Teslas, my biggest concern is what post warranty service will be like.

I tend to keep my cars a long time, and I nearly always use independent garages for non warranty service because dealer service costs are crazy (not just for Tesla, but for every brand I've owned). I primarily use two "indys" who are well known for being highly competent and well equipped to the point they are able to do just about any repair a dealer can do including on high end European cars. They are not cheap, but still far less costly versus a dealer, and you get much more personalized service.

Both of them would like to service Teslas, but when I told them I was thinking of buying one, they explained to me they can't service them because Tesla won't sell them parts nor provide service information the way other manufacturers do. For example with Porsche, they have to pay an annual, very costly, subscription for service info, but with Tesla you can't get the info at any price.

So where does that leave an owner if you are not close to a Tesla dealer, and what will non warranty repair prices be like when Tesla knows they have you by the "you know what" because you have no alternative but to go to them for repairs? My sister needed a new screen on her Model S and they charged her more than $5500 in parts, labor, and fees, and her car was out of service at the dealer for more than a month. She had no choice, and when she asked about the cost the dealer told her "that's what we charge".

The dealer even admitted screen replacements are commonplace on older Model S and Model X's. While you could protect yourself with an extended warranty, I'm told Tesla does not offer that on Model 3's and Y's.

 

[Earl]

Reminder for @Earl @SeanH that the thread subject is "For those involved in the Buyback program: what are your plans after?" So start your own thread.

Good point. I guess I was trying to encourage folks to get beyond some of the misconceptions and see that a Tesla is worth considering.
Sorry if I ended up hijacking your good thread.

 

[Earl]

Earl, I'm curious why you are posting here. Do you own a Kona EV or are contemplating buying one? Not suggesting you don't have every right to post here, just trying to understand your motivations and point of view.

I don't own a Tesla but have three family members who do, so I've seen the positives and negatives, just like with any other car.

After watching my family members' experiences with their Teslas, my biggest concern is what post warranty service will be like.

I tend to keep my cars a long time, and I nearly always use independent garages for non warranty service because dealer service costs are crazy (not just for Tesla, but for every brand I've owned). I primarily use two "indys" who are well known for being highly competent and well equipped to the point they are able to do just about any repair a dealer can do including on high end European cars. They are not cheap, but still far less costly versus a dealer, and you get much more personalized service.

Both of them would like to service Teslas, but when I told them I was thinking of buying one, they explained to me they can't service them because Tesla won't sell them parts nor provide service information the way other manufacturers do. For example with Porsche, they have to pay an annual, very costly, subscription for service info, but with Tesla you can't get the info at any price.

So where does that leave an owner if you are not close to a Tesla dealer, and what will non warranty repair prices be like when Tesla knows they have you by the "you know what" because you have no alternative but to go to them for repairs? My sister needed a new screen on her Model S and they charged her more than $5500 in parts, labor, and fees, and her car was out of service at the dealer for more than a month. She had no choice, and when she asked about the cost the dealer told her "that's what we charge".

The dealer even admitted screen replacements are commonplace on older Model S and Model X's. While you could protect yourself with an extended warranty, I'm told Tesla does not offer that on Model 3's and Y's.

My motivation is that I want to end our society's dependence on oil for all of the usual reasons. Over the past 30 years, I've seen that EV technology appears to be a viable and good option for doing so. Getting them, however, has been a 30 year uphill battle.
I've been a part of many different fora but recently came here because it seems to have a lot of good, non-Tesla information from which I can learn (that's why I look at the Kona threads) but also because it contains so much mis-information about EVs which I hope to be able to correct.
In that vein, I may be able to share some information that may help you with your concerns about Tesla. I've been a Tesla customer since 2006 and a Tesla driver since 2008. I, too, prefer to drive a car until "its wheels fall off". In my extended family, there are 10 Teslas. 5 of them are off warranty. The oldest ones are 2008 Roadsters. The oldest mainstream one is a 2012 Model S. Clearly, these are all very early cars with different issues than ones you would buy today so there's no clear answer that can address your concerns.
Tesla, just like any car company, has trouble keeping up with parts supply for old cars, especially very low-volume ones such as Roadsters. They do, however, try to fix them. There was a time, when they were going through admitted "Production Hell" with the Model 3, that we had trouble getting them to pay attention to Roadster issues. They have changed their tune, however. This is probably because folks like you had legitimate concerns and the only answer that could be provided wasn't painting them well.
Our 13 year old batteries are still doing ok but are starting to show age. We just did a 1000 mile road trip in a Roadster last weekend but it was down ~20% in capacity and we saw some power reduction at low state of charge when driving hard. The Power Electronic Modules are starting to go bad with age, apparently due to deterioration of insulation in the capacitors. Tesla has a program in place to provide rebuilt ones. There have been a couple of efforts by Tesla to provide replacement batteries. The first one sort of petered out, possibly due to lack of interest by most since the originals were still usable, however, there's apparently another effort that started recently to begin providing replacement batteries.
Clearly, as batteries have a shelf-life, they couldn't just make a lot to have lying around as spares.
Also, given the small number of these cars, there's no economy of scale so the cost of these parts is high, just as with any other similar low-volume performance car.
The 9 year old Model S is still fine except that the web browser doesn't work. This is most likely because there isn't enough computer horsepower to handle all of the software enhancements. Tesla has had no trouble supporting it.
4 of the cars (including the oldest) are in a place that was initially about 60 miles from a Tesla service center. Mobile service rangers used to come out to do minor work (such as pre-emptive 12v accessory battery replacement), however, about 4 years ago, Tesla stationed a mobile service technician in the town so service is easy today. Big repairs (like a window regulator) still have to go to the service center.
My 3+ year old Model 3 with 104K miles is technically out of bumper-to-bumper warranty. However, 3 weeks ago, Tesla just preemptively replaced my 12v accessory battery and my Mobile Charging Connector with a mobile service ranger visit, free of charge. Whether they will continue such premium service is, of course, unknown.

Taking a Tesla to an 'indy garage', unless they actually know about Teslas is kind of like taking a computer to a plumber for repair - not really the right tool for the job. Anyone can do tire changes and alignments (and I suppose shocks although we haven't had to change any yet). There are a few independent Tesla repair shops cropping up who can handle them (1 in LA, 1 in Phoenix, and 1 in Seattle), however, for the most part you are dependent upon Tesla for service at this point. https://grubermotors.com is the one in Phoenix. Tesla doesn't just send parts to someone who will more than likely electrocute themselves. I can understand how this could be a turn-off for some.

There are definitely a lot of unknowns with Tesla going forward and they have made mistakes. So far, however, we've been happy that Tesla is leading the charge to allow us to skip the gas stations.

I hope I've helped you to decide how to deal with the Kona buyback, whatever decision you make. I also hope that you are able to continue gas-free.

 

[NRH]

Sorry if I ended up hijacking your good thread.

Thanks for the apology. You did.
Also, you seem unaware that repeatedly telling other dedicated EV enthusiasts that you just want to save them from their own ignorance is pretty off-putting. It's very much like some kind of 17th century missionary conquering the godless heathens because he loves them too much to let them live with out his one true awesome god.

Entertain for a moment, the idea that we may all be equally capable of evaluating information, and reaching conclusions that are, in fact, the best decisions for our own situations. It's great that you love your Tesla. My well-reasoned decision not to buy one had nothing to do with the big bad media who is out to get you and save big oil. It had everything to do with the fact that I would have to spend $15,000 more to get a RWD vehicle for snowy roads, that can't be serviced anywhere within a 4 hour drive of my home.

I'm once again starting to (pre-)shop for an EV, and I'm investigating all my options - Ford, Hyundai, Kia, VW, Volvo and, yes, Tesla. In fact, I configured a Model Y yesterday on the website. The pricing was way more than I care to spend for something which is not a luxury car, and I was totally turned off by the website telling me that the price was $47,000 (but only after an unexplained $4,500 "gas savings discount"). I clicked all the links for more info, and no explanation was given. It did take me to a table that reminded me that in Maine, a $52,000 vehicle is NOT eligible for the $2000 state rebate for EV cars (vehicles under $50,000 only). All I can conclude is that they're lying to me about the price, without telling me that they're subtracting how much they think I'll save on gas. But I don't buy any frickin' gas for the EV that this would be replacing!!

That's shitty bait and switch marketing, and I don't like it. I've left dealerships in the past for the same kind of BS. I don't like shopping for cars, and I have no reason to make the experience any worse for myself than it needs to be.

 

[Earl]

I count one true mistake, which was that you could control the volume on the steering wheel.

Your big issue is treating your opinions as though everyone else should agree. I presented my perspective for me.

I concur and hope that your explanation, my rebuttal, and your responses will help others to make good, informed decisions for themselves, since they are presented with this dilemma.
I don't want to waste their time with another round. In generally, I see that your responses share your valid opinions and preferences. There are only a few picky differences I see in the machine learning aspects that we don't need to bore the rest on this forum with. I'll be happy to discuss on another thread if you start one.

 

[R P]

Taking a Tesla to an 'indy garage', unless they actually know about Teslas is kind of like taking a computer to a plumber for repair - not really the right tool for the job.

You don't take a computer to a plumber, but you certainly can take it to a computer shop that is not owned by the manufacturer.

Clearly Earl, your Tesla fanboi arguments have no merit. So please leave this forum as others have suggested. If you want to talk about Tesla, go to the Tesla forum. I am sure you will find more believers over there.

 

[Earl]

RWD vehicle for snowy roads

Unfortunately, this is yet another piece of mistaken info as well (I've been corrected that "misnomer" is probably the wrong term). I'd be happy to try to meet you in a snowy parking lot somewhere in North America with my RWD Tesla and you in any FWD from any manufacturer for a little snowy road autocross. I'd even trade cars so you could see for yourself.
You'd see that, with the weight distribution of a ground-up designed EV with well-tuned traction control, RWD is better in snow than FWD.
Sorry if I'm off-putting. That is a risk.
Most Tesla drivers have just written off fora like this. I'm still tilting at a few windmills though in hopes that some might benefit.

 

[R P]

Earl, if you want to keep discussing why your M3 is better than a Kona, I have created a new thread just for you. Please take your arguments over there.
https://insideevsforum.com/communit...-is-better-than-a-tesla-m3.11167/#post-133688

 

[NRH]

You really are, but at least now you know.

Sorry if I'm off-putting. That is a risk.

It's only a risk, until you've been told by multiple people that you're being rude. After that it's a choice!

Most Tesla drivers have just written off fora like this. I'm still tilting at a few windmills though in hopes that some might benefit.

You do recall that Don Quixote read too much romance fiction and then went insane, right?

 

[Earl]

until you've been told by multiple people that you're being rude

Given all of the anti-EV trolls that abound and whom they've influenced, it really isn't that easy. Through name calling and cyber-bullying, they'll throw every pro-EV person and true fact off the internet by whatever means possible.
I've been being told to quit promoting EVs since the 1990's and I've been given all sorts of reasons why. I even had my first one taken away from me and crushed against my will.
I haven't gone totally insane myself yet (emphasis on totally). In fact, overall, I'm feeling a lot of vindication as I can hardly go anywhere without regularly seeing EVs from many different manufacturers.
I've annoyed a few anti-Tesla folks in the past trying to keep them from driving people away from EVs. I suggested that their over-zealous fanboi promotion of early compliance EVs is just as likely to steer people toward ICE as to an EV once they see how limited they were. One even got a bunch of people together to suggest I should be locked up (and one was a city councilman) for saying that always driving 55 mph on a 65 mph freeway in order to get more EV range is giving the people driving around them a bad view of EVs. I never quite understood their logic against me. I guess they believed that suggesting driving the legal speed limit is promoting dangerous behavior.
Unintentionally, the ones mentioned above are now Tesla owners and supporters now that the affordable Model 3 came out. From the beginning, I suspected that it was "sour grapes" without enough foresight to see what was coming.
I actually came over to this site to see if, perhaps, I should add the Kona to the list of EVs that I recommend people consider for their first EV and to understand the appropriate caveats that should come with such recommendations.
I've seen that it may be viable, again, as with all EVs (including Tesla), there are caveats. I have learned, however, that the Kona does charge at a relatively good rate and that the EA infrastructure is improving, making road-trips more viable. This puts it ahead of the Bolt in many cases.
Unfortunately, I was appalled at the mis-information that was being spread around here as fact.
I could just let it go like most. Or I could sow a little correct information around in hopes that, at least a few, go out and check things out for themselves - even if their only motivation is to prove me wrong.
Eventually, other car companies may see, by watching the growing industry, how to do EVs correctly. They may even be able to support legitimate preferences that others (including me) have for doing things differently. Then we may actually have good choices of EVs available to make everyone happy.

 

[Domenick]

This thread is just to collect some posts that took a thread off-topic, in case those involved would like to continue their discussion. (but please be nice to each other. thanks!)

Edit* This post was intended to be at the top of the thread, but I imagine everyone involved here gets it.