Another gun control argument

[bwilson4web]

When gun control works:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...gally-supplying-gun-kyle-rittenhouse-n1247307

Charges have been filed against a 19-year-old man who prosecutors allege purchased and supplied the gun used by 17-year-old Kyle Rittenhouse in the fatal shootings of two protesters in Kenosha, Wisconsin.

Dominick Black, of Kenosha, faces two felony counts of intentionally giving a dangerous weapon to a minor, causing death, according to a criminal complaint filed in Kenosha County Circuit Court. If he's found guilty, he faces up to 6 years in prison per count.​

Gun control legislation does not have to be 100% perfect. After all, murder is illegal yet murders continue to happen. Rather legislation puts those who are caught in prison or jail to prevent a career criminal from replicating their offense.

Bob Wilson

 

[SouthernDude]

First, I am not a gun enthusiast nor do I own a gun. But have been following this discussion out of curiosity, more about understanding people and their thinking than just the argument at hand. What strikes me, though, ironically, is almost everything BW says actually supports the need for citizens to carry arms to protect themselves against the nutcases and the lack of law and order in some parts of the US.

Here's some more context:



This is the FBI Expanded Table 8 data. It displays the weapons used to commit murder/homicide. As you can see, barely anyone is murdered with Rifles, so there's zero point to regulate them. It literally won't do anything. Bob is just cherry-picking a handful of anecdotes to justify taking away gun rights. The unknown firearms are far more likely going to be a handgun or shotgun too. It's a complete waste of time to fret over rifles and "military grade" weapons.

Notice how knifes are used to murder nearly 10x as many people as rifles. Guess we need background checks to buy kitchen knives according to Bob. lol (this totalitarian nightmare is actually happening in the UK now.)

>But we've already seen criminal guns against elected leaders, a Bible study group, a Country Western crowd, and elementary school children. Now 'second amendment' threats against vote counters.

^^This type of phrasing is a perfect example of FUD. All the surrounding relevant context for each of these events, as well as gun violence as a whole have been ignored just so he can make his point. It's all post-hoc rationalization that banning "military grade" rifles could have stopped or prevented these events.

For example, take the Bible study group one. He's obviously referring to the incident in Charleston, SC that happened on June 17, 2015. In the incident, the shooter used a .45 caliber handgun, which is essentially the equivalent of 11.5 mm bullet. There is zero reason why the same incident couldn't have also happened with a ~9mm gun. Or the alleged death threats - you can't assume a weapon if no weapon was specified. He only assumes the weapons he wants to ban so he can justify banning them.


Remember how the whole discussion was started with the terrorist attack in Austria? Notice how he left out crucial details that would give more context to the incident. Like how the government knowingly let someone into the country who literally tried to join an enemy islamic terrorist group. Is this not a relevant factor to discuss? Nope. lol Why have an honest conversation when other relevant facts make what you want invalid? That's typically how it is with the "common sense" gun grabber people.


https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u....018/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8.xls

 

[R P]

Yeah, BW's postings just further support the need for non-criminal citizens to buy guns to protect themselves. Real shame that they can't keep the bad guys in prison or out of the country. And we know they will always have access to guns and other weapons to commit their crimes. And this defund the police movement certainly doesn't help.

This table is interesting though. Also surprised at the blunt objects and personal weapons (fists, etc) lines. Again, more than rifles.

 

[SouthernDude]

Yeah, BW's postings just further support the need for non-criminal citizens to buy guns to protect themselves. Real shame that they can't keep the bad guys in prison or out of the country. And we know they will always have access to guns and other weapons to commit their crimes. And this defund the police movement certainly doesn't help.

This table is interesting though. Also surprised at the blunt objects and personal weapons (fists, etc) lines. Again, more than rifles.

It's more like he's completely unaware of what's actually happening.

>Gun control legislation does not have to be 100% perfect. After all, murder is illegal yet murders continue to happen. Rather legislation puts those who are caught in prison or jail to prevent a career criminal from replicating their offense.

^^^ He essentially says here that no gun laws are 100% effective, but the cherry-picked incidents he listed would not have been prevented by any of the restrictions he outlined because existing gun control laws weren't 100% effective. His metaphysical framework doesn't allow him to reflect on the cognitive dissonance from this.

 

[R P]

Some people just get completely blinded with their one track minds, and search for whatever they can find (media and google) to support their beliefs. Kind of sad actually..., but not uncommon with the general public these days. Seems like there are two types, those with very closed minded strong beliefs that they openly peddle no matter how nonsensical they sound (101 is another example) or those that are too lazy to think and just accept whatever the media tells them.

 

[SouthernDude]

Some people just get completely blinded with their one track minds, and search for whatever they can find (media and google) to support their beliefs. Kind of sad actually..., but not uncommon with the general public these days. Seems like there are two types, those with very closed minded strong beliefs that they openly peddle no matter how nonsensical they sound (101 is another example) or those that are too lazy to think and just accept whatever the media tells them.

I know right? Very annoying. Most people don't even think about why they believe what they believe.

 

[bwilson4web]

Facts and data: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/08/16/what-the-data-says-about-gun-deaths-in-the-u-s/

• "39,773 people died from gun-related injuries in the U.S., according to the CDC. This figure includes gun murders and gun suicides, along with three other, less common types of gun-related deaths tracked by the CDC: those that were unintentional, involved law enforcement or whose circumstances could not be determined."
• "In 2017, six-in-ten gun-related deaths in the U.S. were suicides (23,854), while 37% were murders (14,542), according to the CDC. The remainder were unintentional (486), involved law enforcement (553) or had undetermined circumstances (338)."
• "Three-quarters of all U.S. murders in 2017 – 14,542 out of 19,510 – involved a firearm. About half (51%) of all suicides that year – 23,854 out of 47,173 – involved a gun."
• "The 39,773 total gun deaths in 2017 were the most since at least 1968,"
• 
  
  
• 
  
  
• "The gun death rate in the U.S. is much higher than in most other nations, particularly developed nations. But it is still far below the rates in several Latin American nations"
• "The Gun Violence Archive, an online database of gun violence incidents in the U.S., defines mass shootings as incidents in which four or more people – excluding the shooter – are shot or killed. Using this definition, 373 people died in these incidents in 2018."
• 
  
  
• "In 2017, handguns were involved in the majority (64%) of the 10,982 U.S. gun murders and non-negligent manslaughters for which data is available, according to the FBI. Rifles – the category that includes many guns that are sometimes referred to as “assault weapons”– were involved in 4%. Shotguns were involved in 2%. The remainder of gun homicides and non-negligent manslaughters (30%) involved firearms that were classified as “other guns or type not stated.”"

Still, there is a problem that we are killing too many:

1. Hardware - make the weapons less lethal for mass killings.
2. Software - improve weapons supply chain and open up liability to those whose business model is death.
3. Peopleware - better screening, the "A well regulated Militia ..." or the Swiss model.

Bob Wilson

 

[R P]

Still, there is a problem that we are killing too many:

1. Hardware - make the weapons less lethal for mass killings.
2. Software - improve weapons supply chain and open up liability to those whose business model is death.
3. Peopleware - better screening, the "A well regulated Militia ..." or the Swiss model.

Bob Wilson

How about if we just ended the situation where crime pays. That includes keeping violent criminals locked up (and don't make their stay a pleasant one where they can plan and get educated on how to commit more crimes when they get out), no immediate release without bail, eliminating gang behaviour that is glorified and entices kids to join. And supporting the police who are trying to stop real crime. That would reduce and eventually eliminate the need for non-criminal citizens to buy and carry guns for their own protection. And with true crime deterrence, jail populations would go down as the incentive to commit crimes would be eliminated.

Ask yourself this. Why does an honest law abiding citizen carry a gun in their purse or glove compartment? We know why the criminals do it, but why the non-criminals?

Sure would be nice to get back to the world I grew up in, where we didn't even have locks on our doors... And not worry about walking a downtown street without having to look over your shoulder. And teachers and staff didn't turn a blind eye to drug dealing. Not too many places like that left anymore.

And just to be clear, I am not advocating restricting individual's freedoms. Just the opposite actually. It is individual freedoms that are being curtailed today as the "cure" for society's ails. And ironically, violence and crime are just increasing.

 

[Recoil45]

Facts and data: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/08/16/what-the-data-says-about-gun-deaths-in-the-u-s/

• "39,773 people died from gun-related injuries in the U.S., according to the CDC. This figure includes gun murders and gun suicides, along with three other, less common types of gun-related deaths tracked by the CDC: those that were unintentional, involved law enforcement or whose circumstances could not be determined."
• "In 2017, six-in-ten gun-related deaths in the U.S. were suicides (23,854), while 37% were murders (14,542), according to the CDC. The remainder were unintentional (486), involved law enforcement (553) or had undetermined circumstances (338)."
• "Three-quarters of all U.S. murders in 2017 – 14,542 out of 19,510 – involved a firearm. About half (51%) of all suicides that year – 23,854 out of 47,173 – involved a gun."
• "The 39,773 total gun deaths in 2017 were the most since at least 1968,"
• 
  
  
• 
  
  
• "The gun death rate in the U.S. is much higher than in most other nations, particularly developed nations. But it is still far below the rates in several Latin American nations"
• "The Gun Violence Archive, an online database of gun violence incidents in the U.S., defines mass shootings as incidents in which four or more people – excluding the shooter – are shot or killed. Using this definition, 373 people died in these incidents in 2018."
• 
  
  
• "In 2017, handguns were involved in the majority (64%) of the 10,982 U.S. gun murders and non-negligent manslaughters for which data is available, according to the FBI. Rifles – the category that includes many guns that are sometimes referred to as “assault weapons”– were involved in 4%. Shotguns were involved in 2%. The remainder of gun homicides and non-negligent manslaughters (30%) involved firearms that were classified as “other guns or type not stated.”"

Still, there is a problem that we are killing too many:

1. Hardware - make the weapons less lethal for mass killings.
2. Software - improve weapons supply chain and open up liability to those whose business model is death.
3. Peopleware - better screening, the "A well regulated Militia ..." or the Swiss model.

Bob Wilson

Bob,
How many people a year die in mass shootings?

Hint: It’s an insignificant number. The 2a is a constitutionally protected god given right. Removing it is virtually impossible.

There are far easier things to focus on in our society to save way more lives with less resistance.

You think and post based on emotion, not logic.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[SouthernDude]

Facts and data: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/08/16/what-the-data-says-about-gun-deaths-in-the-u-s/

• "39,773 people died from gun-related injuries in the U.S., according to the CDC. This figure includes gun murders and gun suicides, along with three other, less common types of gun-related deaths tracked by the CDC: those that were unintentional, involved law enforcement or whose circumstances could not be determined."
• "In 2017, six-in-ten gun-related deaths in the U.S. were suicides (23,854), while 37% were murders (14,542), according to the CDC. The remainder were unintentional (486), involved law enforcement (553) or had undetermined circumstances (338)."
• "Three-quarters of all U.S. murders in 2017 – 14,542 out of 19,510 – involved a firearm. About half (51%) of all suicides that year – 23,854 out of 47,173 – involved a gun."
• "The 39,773 total gun deaths in 2017 were the most since at least 1968,"
• 
  
  
• 
  
  
• "The gun death rate in the U.S. is much higher than in most other nations, particularly developed nations. But it is still far below the rates in several Latin American nations"
• "The Gun Violence Archive, an online database of gun violence incidents in the U.S., defines mass shootings as incidents in which four or more people – excluding the shooter – are shot or killed. Using this definition, 373 people died in these incidents in 2018."
• 
  
  
• "In 2017, handguns were involved in the majority (64%) of the 10,982 U.S. gun murders and non-negligent manslaughters for which data is available, according to the FBI. Rifles – the category that includes many guns that are sometimes referred to as “assault weapons”– were involved in 4%. Shotguns were involved in 2%. The remainder of gun homicides and non-negligent manslaughters (30%) involved firearms that were classified as “other guns or type not stated.”"

Still, there is a problem that we are killing too many:

1. Hardware - make the weapons less lethal for mass killings.
2. Software - improve weapons supply chain and open up liability to those whose business model is death.
3. Peopleware - better screening, the "A well regulated Militia ..." or the Swiss model.

Bob Wilson

lol. Why present data in such a misleading way? You are presenting the data as if you just assume that these deaths are caused by the presence of guns.
Nope. Nothing to see here. Don't look behind the curtain. lol

It's far more honest to report suicide and homicide rates as a whole when discussing these topics. This should be obvious.
Here's the CDC table displaying the US suicide(1) rate over time:

Here is the table from Australia:


The Suicide rate for Australia isn't dissimilar from the US. Same trend of increasing as well. This is well after the supposedly effective gun control measures passed in the 1990s. Leftist routinely point to Australia as some example of what to do to reduce reduce gun related suicides, but it doesn't do anything about suicide overall. Japan (14.3 per 100k in 2016)(3) and South Korea (20.2 per 100k in 2016)(3) have even more restrictive gun control laws but rates of suicide that are higher than the US. In short, gun control isn't stopping suicides from happening. This is because suicide is not being caused by the presence of guns.

Removing guns will only make people shift to a different method of suicide. Utterly pointless

Homicide is different than suicide, so the factors that cause homicide to occur are obviously different. This topic has more details that I care to get into with this post, but I will leave the FBI Table 6 (4). Very interesting to look at.

That map doesn't give any meaningful information for the reasons mentioned above.

The category of "active shooter" was created in 2000. It's arguable that the category is misleading in general so I don't put much weight into it. It overlooks incidents where people get murdered in crossfires happening between gangs in urban areas. The category of the incident would also change depending on time of day, even if the risk for any given individual in the same area doesn't actually diminish. Seems to me that this is a category that would be ripe for political manipulation. All these factors make a metric like this too arbitrary to be useful in my opinion.

In any case, there is no justification restrict gun rights anymore than they are. The facts don't justify your demands.

(1) https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db362-tables-508.pdf#1
(2) https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/h...tional-self-harm-suicides-key-characteristics
(3) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate
(4) https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u....018/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-6.xls

 

[SouthernDude]

How about if we just ended the situation where crime pays. That includes keeping violent criminals locked up (and don't make their stay a pleasant one where they can plan and get educated on how to commit more crimes when they get out), no immediate release without bail, eliminating gang behaviour that is glorified and entices kids to join. And supporting the police who are trying to stop real crime. That would reduce and eventually eliminate the need for non-criminal citizens to buy and carry guns for their own protection. And with true crime deterrence, jail populations would go down as the incentive to commit crimes would be eliminated.

Ask yourself this. Why does an honest law abiding citizen carry a gun in their purse or glove compartment? We know why the criminals do it, but why the non-criminals?

Sure would be nice to get back to the world I grew up in, where we didn't even have locks on our doors... And not worry about walking a downtown street without having to look over your shoulder. And teachers and staff didn't turn a blind eye to drug dealing. Not too many places like that left anymore.

And just to be clear, I am not advocating restricting individual's freedoms. Just the opposite actually. It is individual freedoms that are being curtailed today as the "cure" for society's ails. And ironically, violence and crime are just increasing.

To be honest, the only factor that really prevents crime is social consequence. Jail time doesn't really stop crime from occurring. Many people are capable of being reformed, but there is a select group that is utterly incapable of being reformed. Super criminals are legitimately a thing. This is why I'm not opposed death penalty.

I agree that its ridiculous to restrict everyone's liberties when its only a few that abuse it. I will not trade in my liberties for the tyranny of perceived safety

 

[R P]

I wonder what gun owners will do if/when their gun ownership will be taxed? There is more than one way to skin this cat, and the politicians will find it.

 

[bwilson4web]

Curiously I was in the ER Tuesday 4AM when a gunshot victim came in. He’d been put in a private SUV so the ER staff had to put him on a gurney. I saw the large caliber bullet hole.

Soon enough we’ll see reports of credit card hunters on public lands shooting each other. You know, Cheney style.

Bob Wilson

 

[SouthernDude]

Curiously I was in the ER Tuesday 4AM when a gunshot victim came in. He’d been put in a private SUV so the ER staff had to put him on a gurney. I saw the large caliber bullet hole.

Ok. And? What is an anecdote supposed to prove anyways? How do you know what caliber bullet left the bullet hole?

Is this in reference to the incident with Bradley Pugh in Huntsville starting at 10:00 pm on 11/16/2020? If so, he used a handgun and how would you have seen a bullet hole in an SUV?

I see nothing mentioned for any other shooting that happened in the Huntsville area in the past 72 hours.

Or are you referring to this event that took place on 11/4/2020? Seems to match your description more.

https://www.huntsvilleal.gov/wilson-dr-shooting-investigation/

 

[SouthernDude]

I wonder what gun owners will do if/when their gun ownership will be taxed? There is more than one way to skin this cat, and the politicians will find it.

Well... It's much worse than that. This, among a bunch of other ineffectual nonsense, comes from Joe Biden's website where he describes what he wants to do:

>>Hold gun manufacturers accountable. In 2005, then-Senator Biden voted against the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act, but gun manufacturers successfully lobbied Congress to secure its passage. This law protects these manufacturers from being held civilly liable for their products – a protection granted to no other industry. Biden will prioritize repealing this protection.

What this would effectively do is make it possible to have class action lawsuits against gun manufacturers. Gun grabbers will use these types of lawsuits to bankrupt gun manufacturers. They know this and this is the goal. Its a way to work around the second amendment to effectively attempt to destroy gun ownership in the US.


https://joebiden.com/gunsafety/

 

[Recoil45]

Curiously I was in the ER Tuesday 4AM when a gunshot victim came in. He’d been put in a private SUV so the ER staff had to put him on a gurney. I saw the large caliber bullet hole.

Soon enough we’ll see reports of credit card hunters on public lands shooting each other. You know, Cheney style.

Bob Wilson

Think it was a 50bmg?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[bwilson4web]

It was Tuesday, November 17, 2020 about 4AM in the morning. The abdominal diameter appears to be at least as large as ~0.5 inch but I had no scale to measure. The gunshot wound was not obscured by bleeding when I saw it.

I am sure the gun 'rights' claimants don't care about the victims both wounded and deaths. Their amoral attitudes are quite clear as their two-faced claims to not shoot and kill the pro-Trump political advocates. They would rather claim bullets instead of ballots but we've known their hypocrisy for sometime.

Bob Wilson

 

[bwilson4web]

Think it was a 50bmg?

Naw, he would have already been gutted ... or at least if I'd shot him with my 50 cal Thompson. A smaller calibre would have pulled the skin in and created a larger than apparent caliber entry wound.

So have you ever gone game hunting? I have successfully done both. Do you actually have any experience with shooting a weapon into critters?

Bob Wilson

 

[Recoil45]

Naw, he would have already been gutted ... or at least if I'd shot him with my 50 cal Thompson. A smaller calibre would have pulled the skin in and created a larger than apparent caliber entry wound.

So have you ever gone game hunting? I have successfully done both. Do you actually have any experience with shooting a weapon into critters?

Bob Wilson

Omg, you own a gun?

Are you crazy?

Do you also have a red MAGA hat and hate minorities?

Don’t tell me you’r Christian too?


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[bwilson4web]

Omg, you own a gun?

Of course:

• 50 cal rifled muzzle loader - one that I've modified with a front, cross and rear peep sight. I can reach out to 200 yards with a fairly tight group.
• 50 cal rifled, flint-lock, muzzle loader - I'm not a fan of pistols but have fair skills.

There is a Zen of firearms and if you've shot one, you understand. If not, there is nothing you would ever understand.

Bob Wilson