Questioning about Hybrid, especially PHEV

J

Jimmy Vo

Member
I love the concept of PHEV. You can drive long-range with battery, and have gas a backup. That is the main reason why I bought the Clarity. But after I have driven Clarity for 2 weeks, I have never used a single drop of gas/oil. So I ask myself if I drive battery for 95% of the time, why I do I have to carry the ICE Engine me every time I drive :). It's heavy and takes space. The fact that I might need ICE (gas engine) 5% of the time only, but it penalizes me to carry with me 95% when I don't use it, it gives me a second thought, it is worth it?
It makes sense when you do 50/50, but if you do over 90% of driving battery, you might as well getting all EV.

Your thoughts?
 
The Clarity is a 1-car solution for us. Otherwise, we would likely have kept a second vehicle to cover the occasional road trip. Eliminating a vehicle is a big advantage. Our usage is more like 75% EV 25% gas so not quite as heavily EV as you are.
 
The answer is: Personal preference.

I generally agree with your line of thinking, which is why I find it so odd that there are a great number of Clarity owners here who are concerned about 1 year old gas in their tank, or brag about going an entire year on a single tank of gas, etc. I often have wondered...why Clarity? Why not just buy a pure EV?

Then again, in your scenario, the other 5% to 10% of the time you will be forced to rent or borrow or own a completely different car in order to complete your trips...which can be inconvenient and/or expensive, depending on how you fill that occasional need.

Me? We do many long trips. Overall our Clarity is probably running 40% EV, 60% gas. Though I've never tracked it officially and never will. We just drive.
 
Yes, I almost agree with you. I purchased my Clarity in December 2017 and have only made 3 or 4 trips that I could not have made on battery only. Other than those trips, I use an average of 5 or 6 gallons of gas per year. When I purchased the Clarity the only EV that made sense was the Tesla but since the Model 3 was not available, their other cars were too expensive.
 
I have had times that the charger failed for some reason, and there was no EV range available... Nice to have ICE backup.

I also met an EV driver at a public charger that could not get home until she got her turn on the charger: I drove away.

The EV range will vary dramatically with driving patterns and outside temperature: I was surprised that I did not have sufficient EV range in winter. Your EV range may be sufficient now, but it will drop with falling temperatures.

Two weeks does not a lifetime make.
 
craze1cars said:
Then again, in your scenario, the other 5% to 10% of the time you will be forced to rent or borrow or own a completely different car in order to complete your trips...which can be inconvenient and/or expensive, depending on how you fill that occasional need.

Me? We do many long trips. Overall our Clarity is probably running 40% EV, 60% gas. Though I've never tracked it officially and never will. We just drive.
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I think this is the key to the advantage of the PHEV. There is no planning required. I just drive the car without thinking about range. Several times a year, I need more than the 45 or so electric miles from the Clarity. Most of the time, I know in advance that I need the extra range, so I could arrange for another car, but it's much more convenient to not even think about it. However, occasionally I need the extra range when plans change at the last moment. With a BEV, those occasional moments are fewer due to the larger battery, but they never completely disappear.
 
I agree with your statement. I leased a Clarity to see if I could live with an EV for commuting to work and daily driving. I found Clarity's EV range sufficient for commuting but not for a full day's driving like to banks, stores, etc.

Once I come off lease, I will be moving to a full EV. I estimate I need 150 mile Summer range for an EV for my purposes. By October of next year, I should have a few choices which meet my criteria. For longer trips, I'd use my wife's Ford Escape (which will be a hybrid in the future).
 
If you buy an EV you'll have longer range because of a larger battery. What about the weight of that extra battery? Is it more or less than the gas engine? Furthermore if you do take a trip you'll have to search for charge stations and have somewhat long waits, possibly waiting for other EVs to charge before you can plug in.

We do fit the 95/5% model and the Clarity is perfect for us.
 
SThomas219 said:
I agree with your statement. I leased a Clarity to see if I could live with an EV for commuting to work and daily driving. I found Clarity's EV range sufficient for commuting but not for a full day's driving like to banks, stores, etc.

Once I come off lease, I will be moving to a full EV. I estimate I need 150 mile Summer range for an EV for my purposes. By October of next year, I should have a few choices which meet my criteria. For longer trips, I'd use my wife's Ford Escape (which will be a hybrid in the future).
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We also have a second car that could be used for long trips. There is always the rental car system for another option. But the Clarity is such a good road car I'd hate to give that up to ride in our 2005 4Runner.
 
Has anyone calculated the “penalty” for lugging around the engine?

The EV model has an 80-odd mile range. If you drive 20 miles a day, why lug around all those extra batteries? Why pay the price for them? How many Tesla owners drive more than 20-30 miles a day, yet they paid for and carry the added weight of batteries that provide a 200-300 mile range.

As mentioned, what do you for the 5-10% of driving that exceeds EV range? Keep a second car that sits around 90-95% of the time? It’s a great one car solution, or a great option in a multi-vehicle household where you won’t have to fret over making it to your destination or finding a place to charge.

Have we convinced you yet, that you made a good decision?
 
I've driven about 65% gas and 35% electric over 18k miles in one year. Pre-coronavirus, my commute was 90 miles of nearly all high-speed freeway driving a few times per week. And, a couple times per month I'd need to drive 300 to 400 miles per day. Now that I work from home, I drive electric for the infrequent grocery or hardware store trips, and run the gas engine only every other week when needed on longer trips.

Fuel/energy cost also plays into the equation. My utility upped their off-peak rate from $0.13 to $0.17/kWh a month after I bought the car (thanks PG&E), so for a while when gas was less than $2.35/gl, it was cheaper to drive on gas than electric. My point is, the Clarity has a range of useability, as well as being very quiet and comfortable, all in one car. With the great deals and super rebate/tax credits, it's the best of both worlds at a low price that you can drive today (and not have to spend so much more on a Tesla or one of the other coming electric options). Enjoy your car!
 
This is a concern that many BEV owners have hurled at Volt owners many years back. "Why carry around a big engine if you'll only use it a few times a year?" The same question can be asked to BEV owners, "why carry around a 100kWh battery if you only use 15kWh of it for most of the year?" The answer is the same as all sorts of people use to justify their purchase of all sorts of other cars, whether it's a PHEV, BEV, or a big offroading utility 4x4: because you know that at some point you are going to need that little extra.

You should feel good about your purchase. What's the difference between hauling deadweight if it's an engine or massive battery pack? Would the lightness of a smaller EV like a Leaf be worth the range anxiety and need to plan daily trips rather than to just get in and drive? It's all up to your personal preference.
 
Pooky said:
This is a concern that many BEV owners have hurled at Volt owners many years back. "Why carry around a big engine if you'll only use it a few times a year?" The same question can be asked to BEV owners, "why carry around a 100kWh battery if you only use 15kWh of it for most of the year?" The answer is the same as all sorts of people use to justify their purchase of all sorts of other cars, whether it's a PHEV, BEV, or a big offroading utility 4x4: because you know that at some point you are going to need that little extra.

You should feel good about your purchase. What's the difference between hauling deadweight if it's an engine or massive battery pack? Would the lightness of a smaller EV like a Leaf be worth the range anxiety and need to plan daily trips rather than to just get in and drive? It's all up to your personal preference.
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I agree with you, Pooky. After a few mins of thinking, I think I would come down to this main point, I would give this advice to buyers when they decide to buy PHEV:
If you buy a PHEV, you better justify that you don't have an alternative to do a long trip. It means that if you have do own a good spare ICE car, don't buy PHEV, you should get the BEV instead
Of course, this is my own humble opinion.

Good topic guys, it helps for your next decision of buying a PHEV or BEV
 
Jimmy Vo said:
If you buy a PHEV, you better justify that you don't have an alternative to do a long trip. It means that if you have do own a good spare ICE car, don't buy PHEV, you should get the BEV instead
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There’s really no need to justify anything. It’s a personal choice and there are any number of factors for each individual to consider when making such a decision.

A car like the Clarity PHEV could replace every conventional sedan on the road today with absolutely no inconvenience to the driver. PG&E turns the power off for a few days, no problem. Gas is cheaper than electricity, use gas.

It’s a versatile car. Why buy a car with limitations? How are you going to justify that?
 
Outside of winter, I’m getting about 55 miles per 14 kWh or ~4 miles per kWh. My Chevy Bolt I use at work gets about the same if I used it for my commute. I’d say the penalty of lugging around the ICE isn’t really there.

Once you run out of range, running the ICE at a cost of 5 cents per mile versus 2.5 cents per mile in a BEV if charged at home off peak.

For me the additional cost is negligible since I’m at 85% EV for my 70 mile commute. Having the ICE backup is nice while EV infrastructure expands. Even then, DCFC is being charged at 25 cents per kWh which ends up being more expensive then using gas. Also, to plug in doesn’t get me stranded or late to work.

I don’t regret getting the Clarity at all as my first plug in vehicle. I’ll wait a few more years before I see if I want to dive into a full BEV


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
After nearly 3 years of Clarity PHEV ownership, it's the rare busy day when we need 60 miles of range without the opportunity for a mid-day charge. With its back-up ICE, the Clarity meets our needs admirably. We have a 2010 Honda Insight as our "second car" for days when my wife and I are going different directions.
 
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Jimmy Vo said:
If you buy a PHEV, you better justify that you don't have an alternative to do a long trip. It means that if you have do own a good spare ICE car, don't buy PHEV, you should get the BEV instead
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That might make sense for some people, especially those who also don't mind paying the annual registration and insurance and who have the garage or driveway space for a car that is not used much.

In my family, my wife drives an ICE minivan. I considered the BEV and decided against it because I didn't want to pay the $15k extra for the Tesla, didn't want to worry about the 0.1% probability of running out of range, and didn't want to spend the money for an new circuit to support a level-2 charger on the side of my house.

For a living, I do research into the safety and reliability of computing systems and self-driving cars, so I constantly think about the real-life impacts of very small probabilities. The ever increasing mileage range of BEVs is good to see but not yet enough to eliminate my range anxiety.

There are good reasons for the PHEV or BEV. In my situation, after two years with the Clarity, I would still buy the PHEV Clarity.
 
insightman said:
However, our wonderful Clarity will likely be relegated to "second car" status after a 110-mile range BEV, the sporty MINI Cooper SE, breaks up our 20-year love affair with the Insight (3 of them).
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Being mindful not to derail this thread too much (we can keep it to the theme of PHEV vs BEV ;)), I am curious to hear your thoughts on the new MINI BEV that has been advertised. If I had to choose a short-range city commuter car, I think I would pick the Honda e (wishfully thinking it may eventually arrive stateside). Is the MINI Cooper SE sort of like the next-best thing, in your opinion? What are the standout features that make it an alluring daily driver versus something like the Volt, Clarity, Insight/Prius, etc.? And how do you think it stacks up to more direct competitors like the LEAF? I have never owned a MINI before so I am not familiar with the brand's typical gimmicks.

Cheers
 
I am a new BEV driver and I worried about all of the items listed above. I have a 2019 Kona with 258 miles of range. When I bought it I kept my Volvo S60 for road trips. Problem is nine months in the only time I used the Volvo was to keep the battery charged in it. So I sold it. The Kona was quicker and the Volvo was no slouch and the Kona required no maintenance. I have driven the Kona on 2200 mile road trips from Southern California to Oregon and back. I have never had a problem finding a quick charger. Though the western US has fairly established quick charger infrastructure. I am usually the only one charging. I am now thinking of getting rid of my F250 4x4 and getting a utility trailer to tow with the BEV as I don't drive truck enough to make it worth the insurance and maintenance. If I need to I can get 300 miles range by driving the Kona a little slower at 50mph. That 6 hours of driving. I have done over 800 miles in a single day driving at 65-70 mph with just three stops. Literally, breakfast, lunch and dinner. Don't get me wrong I have nothing against hybrids in fact I have several patents on hybrids. But I am thoroughly enjoying my BEV and have zero range anxiety. Drive what you enjoy. Other cars in my stable are a 1965 Ford Ranchero and a 1974 Porsche 914-6 race car. All fun for their particular application
 
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