Can a Model 3 beat Taycan Turbo S by 20 seconds at Nurburgring?

Discussion in 'General' started by 101101, Sep 17, 2019.

  1. 101101

    101101 Active Member

    Seems plausible because a Model 3 beat a car (Jag 8) at Laguna that beat Taycan by 20 seconds at Nurburgring. The car the Model 3 beat has a top speed about 200mph so that may be a limiter but maybe not. The Plaid S just matched that Jag S at Nurburing- does that hint at a much higher top speed for the Plaid S?

    What Tesla just did with a Plaid Model S prototype is beat a top end 911 that weights 1000lbs and has no interior room with a Massive S. There are still quicker 911s but it is a huge difference. Such a difference that it seems to have caused Porsche to resort to lying to the public- nothing new for a VW company. Now Porsche is saying it didn't use the 'Turbo' S variant of Taycan in its testing which doesn't seem remotely credible not even against Porsche's practice of understating things. Porsche also claimed it used a stock Taycan, but it was a camouflaged mule, and did it have the same tires and by some accounts it was stripped of seats. Porsche seems to be trying for a do over. If now claims to test an Taycan Turbo S at the track I think we can be pretty sure it isn't anything like a stock Taycan Turbo S. Tesla has said its 7 seat production S will be even faster than the 20 seconds faster than the Taycan at Nurburgring.

    Headline coming soon: Tesla pick up faster than Taycan Turbo S at Nurburgring. Have the impression there has to be a 911 Porsche made that the Tesla Semi sans trailer could be at Nurburgring.
     
  2. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member

    It might be more useful to compare and contrast the reported Taycan and Model 3 weights and power:
    • power: 751 hp vs 473 hp
    • weight: 5,200 lbs vs 4,072 lbs
    • lbs/hp
      • 6.92 - Taycan
      • 8.61 - Model 3 Performance
    Back of the envelope, the Taycan has a better weight-to-power ratio than the Model 3 Performance. This should give better acceleration and with appropriate tires, better performance than the Model 3 on a track. Now if you could pull ~700 lbs out of the Model 3, it could be competitive.

    The Model 3 may be competitive with the ID3 when it arrives in the USA in about 3-4 years.

    Bob Wilson
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2019
  3. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    To be fair to Porsche, Clean Technica is estimated the tires used on that modified "Plaid" Model S shaved 10 seconds off the time on that Nürburgring race track run.

    From Clean Technica: "Tesla Model S Laps The Nürburgring In 7:23 — Crushing The Porsche Taycan"

    Porsche's CEO proudly proclaimed their run was made using stock tires. I'll be interested to see if Porsche does another run using "stickier" racing tires, as Tesla did. A friendly rivalry between Porsche and Tesla will be good -- heck, already is good, given the amount of social media "buzz" -- for both companies and their sales.

     
  4. Domenick

    Domenick Administrator Staff Member

    According to Tesla CEO Elon Musk, no. A Model 3 can not beat the Taycan on the Nurburgring unless it included enough laps to out-range it.

    Tweets-Model-3-P-Nurburgring.jpg
     
    bwilson4web likes this.
  5. interestedinEV

    interestedinEV Active Member

    This is like a long distance runner telling a sprinter that "I can beat you at a marathon". Nurburgring records are sprints, and do not measure the sames things as 24 hours at Daytona

    Some of the records at Nurburgring are by cars which are much cheaper, yet people are still buying Porsche's and Lamborghini's. I think this whole Nurburgring is over rated and is more of an ego trip. Elon does not have to prove that he is all things to all people. He has got a good product but it is getting a little old and he needs to expand his offerings quickly and find a way to profitability pretty soon and not get distracted by the likes of the Taycan. The person who buys a Porsche is not going to be swayed by a souped up Tesla S winning against a stock Taycan. just my 1 -c-.
     
  6. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member

    Personally, I think it would be a good thing for Tesla to make a Sega track run with the top of the line, production ready, Roadster II, Model S, Model X, and Model 3. Then leave the 3d party, race shops run theirs using 'best efforts.'
    • Tesla owns the production car records
    • Others own the modified car records
    Bob Wilson
     
  7. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    Having gone to the trouble and expense of customizing one or two of their "Plaid" Model S prototypes for the run on the very challenging Nürburgring "Green Hell" race course, apparently in an attempt to use publicity over that to revive flagging sales of the Model S, Elon certainly isn't going to sabotage that effort by admitting any version of the Model 3 could beat the Taycan -- whether it could or not!

    Just my opinion, of course.

     
  8. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    Sure, but then you can say that about all auto racing. Doing a timed lap on the 'Ring may give you some bragging rights, but it has nothing to do with choosing a car to buy as a daily driver or family car.

    However, gotta say, the first article on this subject on the InsideEVs news site has gathered over 800 comments! That's hundreds of comments more than the response to any other InsideEVs article ever, so far as I know. And of course there are many other articles on the subject at many other websites. So Elon's attempt to generate publicity over the Model S running on the 'Ring succeeded -- in spades!

     
  9. Domenick

    Domenick Administrator Staff Member

    What I like about this is just seeing the car move up the track. This suspension just looks so good here, and you know it's working hard to smooth the way and glue a big and heavy car to the road. The first 21 seconds of this clip from this post, I think, are pretty awesome. The blue one is nearer to the end and is worth checking out. I think it looks pretty sweet.
    Also interesting to see how protective of their IP they're being, careful not to let us see any hint of a motor(s) on the back axle.

     
  10. interestedinEV

    interestedinEV Active Member

    While I agree with you that most of these trials are for bragging rights, Elon has at least to my knowledge, not shown much interest in Nurburgring till now. Once his ego is pricked, he reacts and wants to show that his cars can do better. What I am trying to say is that Elon has a lot of work cut out for him and he needs to focus on those with most long term impact and not get distracted by things that may not matter.

    I do not know how much effort and resources it took for Elon to have a car raced at Nurburgring, but hopefully it was not too much. I agree with @bwilson4web that he should leave such customization to third parties. My preference would be that he comes with the pickup truck and Y as soon as possible, and not be distracted by the likes of the Taycan.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2019
    David Green likes this.
  11. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    I can't see into Elon's head, but here's my take on it:

    Tesla has repeatedly been criticized/ castigated/ bashed by the racing fan community for Tesla cars not being able to "take the heat", literally, when run hard on a challenging race course for more than just a few minutes. And that's a fair criticism. Until the Model 3, with its improved battery pack cooling, Tesla cars simply couldn't handle the heat from running repeated "hot laps" on a challenging track.

    Now, it looks very much like Tesla has finally designed a new Model S/ Model X battery pack using Model 3 pack architecture, with shorter cooling loops and increased coolant flow, which does a much better job of handling waste heat when the car is pushed hard at high speeds. I've been predicting for years that Tesla would redesign the MS/MX battery pack to use innovations found in the Model 3 battery pack, and it looks like that will finally go into production next year... assuming that Elon's "in a year" prediction is on real time, rather than "Elon time". ;)

    So I don't see Tesla's "Plaid" Model S Nürburgring run as being about Elon's ego being pricked, but rather Tesla finally being able to demonstrate a version of the Model S that can "take the heat". It's about publicity and the public image of Tesla's EV tech. In that respect, Tesla has already won -- big time!

     
  12. Domenick

    Domenick Administrator Staff Member

    I see it as a bit of both. They've been working on this "Plaid" drivetrain for a while. I think Musk just saw to many people poo-poo the Model S' abilities in the conversations that followed Taycan setting a good time.

    Musk has been pretty adamant about not getting involved in racing and though that's something many would like to see, I can understand it. It's hard enough to engineer a large battery-powered car that can do all the normal family-car duties, let alone one that can handle a track with ease.

    Tesla has had decent handling and great acceleration, but cooling and improving it is a matter of finding a balance between aero and air intake. People often say EVs don't need a grille, but if you're going to be producing a ton of heat, you're going to need corresponding cooling capabilities, which includes a grill (or air intakes in other locations).
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2019
    interestedinEV likes this.
  13. David Green

    David Green Well-Known Member

    You got it exactly right, Musk's Ego is hurt, Model S sales down 50% and now a legit performance competitor with stunning looks has emerged to go after the remaining 50%. So Musk strips and customizes a Model S to go attempt to embarrass Porsche, but instead embarrasses Tesla with a breakdown so severe the car has to be lifted onto a flatbed with a crane. I guess just like the roadster 202X before, Tesla prototypes are not reliable. Actually their production cars are not much better...
     
  14. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    From Grammarist.com:

    Grill vs. grille
    As a noun, grill refers to (1) a cooking surface using parallel metal bars, (2) a device that cooks with a grill, or (3) a restaurant offering grilled food. As a verb, it means (1) to grill, or (2) to question relentlessly. Grille, which is only a noun, usually refers to a grating used as a screen or barrier on a window or on the front of an automobile.

    Grille is often used instead of grill in restaurant names—e.g., Salt Creek Grille, O’Connell’s Irish Pub & Grille, Arooga’s Grille & Sports Bar. There’s no good reason for this. It’s just something some restaurateurs do.

    To get all up in [one’s] grill is to be extremely annoying, especially through nagging or by covering an opponent closely while playing a sport. Also, in American slang, a grill is a plate molded to the teeth, usually decorated with diamonds or gold. Grill is the conventional spelling for both of these uses even though these senses of the word presumably derive from grille.​

    * * * * *

    Got it, EV fans? A "grill" is something you cook on. A "grille" is what you find on the front of most cars.

    #GrammarNazi

     
  15. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member

    So if we have one that tilts horizontal over a fire or has electrical heating elements for cooking it is a grille that grills?

    If a cop asks you what you are doing on the shoulder cooking dinner while waiting for a tow truck, would it be grilled about grilling on a grille?

    Sounds like a business opportunity or a great YouTube joke for April 1, 2020.

    Bob Wilson
     
    interestedinEV likes this.
  16. Domenick

    Domenick Administrator Staff Member


    :D
     
    Pushmi-Pullyu and interestedinEV like this.
  17. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member

    Well less bad than 'pushing the break at a stop sign after a coffee brake.'

    Bob Wilson
     
  18. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member

  19. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    @Domenick:

    Yeah, I am talkin' to you! You gettin' all up in my grill, homie?
    :D
     
  20. Domenick

    Domenick Administrator Staff Member

    At the risk of staying OT...
     

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