About the Tesla pest

Discussion in 'Tesla' started by bwilson4web, Jul 20, 2019.

  1. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber

    Source: https://www.gofundme.com/f/skabooshka-defense-fund

    by Lawrence Fossi, Organizer

    July 19, 2019 Those following this case will recall that the Court, in a detailed written order on July 1, ordered both sides to produce "any photographic, audio or video recordings of the alleged incidents on February 21 and April 16, 2019." The Court required production on or before July 16, 2019. The Court denied Tesla's motion to exclude the press and public from any parts of the injunction hearing where the recordings were shown. Tesla then changed its legal counsel, and on July 10 filed a "Motion for Clarification or Partial Reconsideration of July 1 Discovery Order and for Protective Order."

    Mr. Hothi filed an Opposition the next day. Among other things, Tesla sought to exclude from the Court's order the audio track made by a camera mounted inside the car. On July 16, Mr. Hothi produced to Tesla all of the photographic, audio, and video recordings in his possession regarding either incident. Tesla produced nothing, but had earlier agreed (in a July 12 written agreement) it would make production by close of business on the day after the Court made a ruling on its Motion for Clarification.

    Yesterday, July 18, the Court issued a second carefully reasoned and detailed order, essentially confirming that Tesla must produce the photographic, audio, and video recordings. As to the April 16 incident, the Court confirmed the recordings were to include all recordings starting with the time the Model 3's occupants were first aware that Mr. Hothi's Acura was within 50 meters of the Tesla Model 3, and ending with the last time his Acura was more than 50 meters from the Model 3.

    Noting that Tesla seemed to suggest in its Motion for Clarification that it was obligated to produce only the recordings from three cameras mounted on and in the Model 3, the Court made clear (citing legal authority) that Tesla's obligations also included the eight cameras integrated into the car and any cell phone cameras of the car's occupants. As to Tesla's claims that some of the recordings would reveal trade secrets or other information that was proprietary and confidential to Tesla, or would reveal information that was purely personal to the Model 3's occupants, the Court noted Tesla had provided no detail to substantiate its claims, but promised it would afford Tesla an opportunity to demonstrate those facts in a preliminary hearing it would conduct in chambers, outside the view of press or public.

    As I mentioned earlier, Tesla had agreed in writing to produce the required materials by close of business today. Tesla has not done so. Tesla's counsel has declined to provide Mr. Hothi's counsel with any information or explanation for Tesla's failure to comply with the Court's July 1 and July 18 orders. Obviously, with the temporary injunction hearing scheduled for next Friday, July 26, Tesla's defiance of the Court's orders compromises Mr. Hothi's ability to prepare his defense.

    More updates to follow as more becomes known. I once again convey the deep appreciation of Mr. Hothi and his legal counsel, D. Gill Sperlein, for the extraordinary generosity of all the contributors. Also, while we are immensely grateful for all contributions, we would note that we do NOT need any further contributions at this time. If that changes, I will post an update and a request for more assistance.

    Sounds interesting.

    Bob Wilson
  2. David Green

    David Green Well-Known Member

    Looks like Tesla was not able to supply evidence (they claimed to have), and now have dropped the silly case against a motivated whistleblower/spy. How much Tesla shareholder money was wasted with the legal wrangling to go after a guy that was just spying on the company to share with the public the inner workings of an extremely deceptive company? Looks like Skabooska will ride again! Haha! And just in time as we have noticed a huge ramp up in Tesla inventory in our area, their storage lot in Bellevue, WA is absolutely bursting at the seams as of last week. The even have cars parked in the driving lanes between the rows. Did sales fall off a cliff again after the end of Q2? We have already seen across the board price reductions in Q3... Things that make you go, Hmmmm...
  3. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    Hmmm. Bob, the info you provided (and thank you!) certainly does seem to indicate that Tesla doesn't really have a case, and its legal team knows it doesn't.

    Rather odd that it would try to file a case against the guy without any real evidence. My guess is that their real intent was to force the guy to spend money on lawyers, to discourage any such future spying and/or harassment from this "Tesla pest".

    Call me cynical, but I don't really buy Tesla's excuse that it shouldn't have to provide recordings to the court in order to protect their trade secrets.

    However, I'm certainly glad that Elon Musk outed Mr. Fossi as the professional anti-Tesla FUDster "Montana Skeptic", and showed that he had an ulterior motive, as money manager for a Big Oil trust fund, to spread anti-Tesla FUD. Even if Tesla wasn't able to successfully pursue this case in court, at least Elon did manage to get the guy fired from his money manager position! Couldn't happen to a nicer guy.

    * * * * *

    Speaking of court cases, whatever happened to the suit and counter-suit between Tesla and that industrial spy/ alleged saboteur who was, apparently, spying on Tesla for charlatan journalist (and professional Tesla FUDster) Linette Lopez?

  4. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    Good to see that Tesla's temporary storage lots are "bursting at the seams". That's certainly an indication that Tesla's sales and deliveries are continuing to grow! Rather undercuts the continuing claims from hardcore Tesla bashers like you that demand is "falling off a cliff", doesn't it?

    It's amusing seeing the TslaQ's "Shorty Air Force" cultists -- I guess you're one of those, are you "David Green"? -- monitoring a handful of parking lots Tesla uses as waypoints for its delivery process, and using their counts in some sort of wacky attempt to estimate or predict Tesla sales or deliveries. Well, they have proven over and over their complete and utter inability to predict what Tesla is doing from their counts, and I think it's hilarious that they continue their pointless obsession!

    But thanks, "David Green", for continuing to keep us amused here.
    :p o_O :cool:
  5. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber

    July 24 is coming quickly and using the earlier gross margins times the reported quantities, the SHORTs have gotten quiet.

    What really stings them is realization that the US Federal Tax Credit for Tesla is soon going away. After January 2020 with no further tax credits, the honorable competition will be exposed for their inferior products.

    Bob Wilson
  6. David Green

    David Green Well-Known Member

    I think Tesla surprised with June volumes, and I know at least in the area I live the older inventory was nearly all sold off. As for the earnings report, I would not be surprised to see Tesla show a small profit, but nowhere near covering the Q1 2019 loss, and I would bet they are showing a loss is the rolling 12 months category, which is exactly what the folks at TSLAQ are talking about. Little profit qtrs followed by huge losses like 2019 Q1, are not business success. TSLA should also report good cash flow for Q2 2019 as they sold more than they built, which means inventory will be lower, generating cash.

    As for competition, the first competitors for the S and X are just arriving in the market over the last few qtrs, and are taking considerable market share from Tesla in the premium EV segment. As you look at the timing the Jaguar I-Pace and Audi E-Tron hit the market the sales volumes for Tesla S and X have really hit the skids. Most people I know buying in this segment do not even factor incentives, we just want what we want, price is for the most part a non factor. As for inferior, I have always felt Tesla products are the inferior ones when it comes to build and material quality, comfort, and ergonomics. I could have bought Tesla, but passed on all their models, even after they have lowered their prices dramatically in the last year. So far in Q3, E-Tron is getting good traction in Norway, dominating Tesla S and X. USA Q3 results we have to wait another week to see..
  7. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    No. They -- just like you -- continue to bay at the moon with your constant "Wolf! Wolf! Wolf!" cries, claiming that demand for Tesla's cars is "falling off a cliff", or has already done so. In fact, you used that exact phrase in a recent post here. This baying at the moon has been constant since the day Tesla started selling cars back in 2008, perhaps most notably in the "Tesla Deathwatch" series; a series which finally ended -- and thus stopped embarrassing its writers -- after some 41 blog posts!

    But at least they faced reality by ending that series back in 2008. Contrariwise, you and your fellow TslaQ cultists are continuing to bay at the moon some 11 years later!

    Mr. "Green", the ability to ignore reality by you and your fellow TslaQ cultists is IMHO about equal to that of diehard members of the Flat Earth Society.

    Last edited: Jul 21, 2019
  8. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber

    Source for June data:
    • 2,725 - Model X
    • 1,750 - Model S
    • 726 - e-tron
    • 236 - I-Pace
    Based on trade-ins, the natural EV market for the Model S/X, e-tron, and I-Pace are owners of existing luxury cars. In the case of the e-tron and I-Pace, even cannibalizing the Audi and Jaguar lines . . . a good thing. You've already posted about how quiet your e-tron is. This mark of luxury does not exists in the Audi ICE family. Worse, I suspect Audi and Jaguar are following the Lutz playbook.

    Lutz claimed Tesla was doomed because they did not have pickup profits to subsidize their EV manufacturing losses. Now the Volt plug-in is dead. But Lutz economics also applies to Audi and Jaguar. Every loss-leading EV they make bleeds from their bottom line profit.

    The Munro EV conference covered the relative costs of cylindrical (cheapest per kWh), prismatic, and pouch (most expensive kWh.) My understanding is the e-tron uses pouch cells. Regardless, the 3-4 month, initial sales bump is still in progress. Let's take a look at the sales again in say October/November.

    Bob Wilson
  9. David Green

    David Green Well-Known Member

    The only problem with your sample numbers is you are choosing sales in one month (June), and in only one market (USA). Let's look at worldwide sales for Q2.... Da Da... All the sudden E-tron is outselling X or S, and in some markets that are huge in EV's, E-Tron is outselling both those vehicles (Norway Spain and Netherlands) , Then lets pull up the numbers for Q3 so far, as the E-Tron factory and distribution lines come up to speed, brother, In Norway its a rout! The big EV player is losing money, and taking a gut punch in their top markets (other than USA... So far).

    Now lets look at Model S and X comparison to 2018 when there was no I-Pace or E-Tron in the market, WOW, Looks like Tesla is off nearly 35% on S and X so far this year. Hmmm... Tesla S and X sales 1H2018 >49K S and X sales 1H 2019 < 29K (2019 1H includes motor and suspension refresh)
    Elon Musk had guided in January there will be no fall off in S and X sales for 2019... Well, thats another of his missed guides.

    I am not the only one to post E-Tron is Quiet, Bjorn Nyland says it is the quietest car on the road, and the faster you go, the bigger its advantage gets, because Audi does not use cheap glass, and insulation like Tesla does.

    Sandy Munro likes Tesla's battery pack and power electronics, hates their body structure and interior work (quality of build). So loves the drivetrain, hates the car... I tend to agree with him.

    BTW, do you follow the auto making world? GM's Gen 2 electronics system making its debut in a couple of Cadillacs, and the 2020 Vette has a similar electronic architecture with one central processor, and OTA re-flash ability. VW is also debuting a similar system in the ID series, so another Tesla advantage down the drain. As for the batteries, I think the pouch cells have strengths and weakness when compared to the cylindrical cells, as for price, it just takes scale to equal them out, and so far Tesla has not proven any advantage in this area, like a said, rolling 12 month losses say the system is not working at this level of production. Apple seems to be able to make money building I-phones with pouch cells. Tesla's cells are not that great in S and X, as they are old tech, expensive, and seem to have issues as Tesla has recently flashed the cars to lower charge rates, and lower the top and bottom limits, seems to have hit the 85 series batteries hard. Model 3 is a better battery, but the way it is all glued together does not seem like it will ever be recyclable, so no end of life plan.
  10. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber

    Perhaps you might post the source(s) and EU numbers? That way we can compare Apples and Apples instead of imprecise terms. But you may find this hard to believe that the EU and China markets play a minor part in today's Tesla sales.

    My expectation is:
    • Gigafactory 3 - by the end of the year will begin to address Asian demand
    • EU today is a side show, a minor part of Tesla production. When Tesla begins the Gigafactory 4, the dirges can begin.
    My focus is on the existing ICE owners as they are the future Tesla customers.

    You mentioned Bjørn Nyland to which I would add Alex Guberman (E for Electric) and Nikki Gordon-Bloomfield (Transport Evolved.) Alex and Nikki are today, distinctly non-Tesla owners. Alex claims to have had three Teslas and now drives a Chevy Volt. Yet as I watch their YouTube reports, there is an elephant in the room . . . the first Model S . . . whose performance today shames more recent EV entries. So is there a 'pool' for when Bjørn Nyland will switch from Teslas to something else?

    Seriously, requirements drive my choices and anyone with two-cents to rub. So I'm fairly calm about claims that others want something else. It is common enough if you watch broadcast TV.

    Bob Wilson
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2019
  11. David Green

    David Green Well-Known Member

    Tesla sales are from Tesla's SEC filings, EU numbers from car sales base, you can drill down to daily numbers.

    Asia Tesla demand is tiny, might improve with GF3 with a lower price, but most Chinese know Tesla will lower the prices as they meet demand (this has been shown repeatedly, Tesla will lower prices into losses to hit some volume number, so always better to wait them out for the best prices, kinda like how you can buy your car cheaper today than you paid just a few months ago. I will bet GF3 does not produce any consistent volume over 1K per week before the end of 1Q 2020.

    Most car buyers are still not ready for EV's, there is a much higher rate of previous EV buyers buying another EV, than the percentage of conquest buyers into their first EV. EV demand is growing quite slow in 2019, nowhere near the gains we saw in the back half of 2018.
  12. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber

    Thanks! I was not aware of: http://carsalesbase.com
    I'm pretty sure we're on the same page. It is an interesting show to watch.
    Is OK. We're waiting on July 24 and then there will be Q3, Q4, and starts 2020.

    Bob Wilson
  13. David Green

    David Green Well-Known Member

    I put very little stock in Tesla current Qtr sales or profits, as they keep making so many adjustments to the business model, pricing structure, thats its hard to get a good bearing on which way is up.. I am more of an I will believe it when I see it when it comes to sustainably profitability. Tesla should stop waisting time and resources going after shorts that are spying on them and just execute. If they make sustainable profit the shorts go aways on their own.

    Audi builds the best luxury EV on the market right now, and that is why I bought it. That may not be the case in 3 months, 6 months, but it is the case today. Model 3 is probable the best sedan EV, but it is certainly no luxury car, and has limited capabilities when it comes to comfort, cargo, and towing. Model 3 also has limited options, so it is impossible to get the car just the way you want it. McDonalds offers more options on a burger than Tesla offers on a model 3. Tesla also gouges customers on service, paint colors, wheels, etc.. Not my style... My Audi tri coat paint job cost me $595 over standard, and is coated with pearl, metal flake, and color. Tesla would charge $2500 for this type of paint job, and then they would mess it up... My 21" turbine wheels and 265/45/21 tires cost $1500 extra, check out what Tesla charges for tires/wheels in this size? Tesla tends to put little pizza cutter tires on their cars for efficiency, and they look like cheap crap... E-Tron also has an integrated toll module, so no toll junk on the windscreen, or front license plate frame.
  14. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    When it comes to the Tesla Model 3, Sandy Munro apparently loves everything about the car except how the body is built. For example, he brought the TM3's one-and-only heat exchanger to an interview to heap praise on Tesla's innovation, and brag about how brilliant it is for Tesla to have just one heat exchanger in the car where other auto makers would use three!

    In fact, in that interview, Sandy went so far as to describe himself as a Tesla fanboy.

    Of course, "Mr. Green", as usual, we can be sure before we even read your comments that very nearly everything you say about Tesla and its cars will be very, very far from the truth!

    It is amazing how different in tone your comments about your e-Tron are. Surprisingly (or perhaps actually not), you are capable of sticking to the truth -- when you're not commenting about Tesla and its cars!

  15. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber

    If you're still SHORT on TSLA, you have negative stock in Tesla, less than zero. <grins>
    I've added:
    • 2nd SAE J1772 Charging Adapter - original stays on the home, J1772, unless charging the BMW i3-REx. The new one stays in the Tesla and was used Sunday afternoon at Propst drug store EVSE. What I found is a latent defect in the J1772 standard that specifies a gasket that can form an air-tight seal. There is no 'vent' in the standard which means removal can be difficult. Public J1772 have worn gaskets and no one in their right mind would replace them.
    • NEMA 10-30 Adapter - for charging from a dryer socket, 240 VAC 30 A (24 A usable.)
    • (TBD) NEMA TT-30 Adapter - for RV park, 120 VAC 30 A charging. I'm not convinced it is needed since NEMA 14-50 are common and available.
    • (borrow/rent) CHAdeMO Adapter - after testing with a borrowed unit (waiting on next firmware,) not sure I want one. Reports are a maximum 50 kW rate. The only way it makes sense is maybe for a long distance trip. So far, a trip to Coffeyville or to the West Coast does not work with CHAdeMO due to the density of SuperChargers.
    Bob Wilson
  16. David Green

    David Green Well-Known Member

    I am not short TSLA, I closed my last trade out when the stock was in the $290's... Haha, I shorted TSLA 3 times over the last year and made over 20% net each time while only having my money leveraged for 4 to 14 days each time. I missed the big correction, but thats OK, I am not greedy. I wanted to make a point, and made it. I do not have it out for TSLA, I just think the CEO is a clown, that hypes all he does, and the cars are very so-so for my family's needs, not even in the same league as the E-Tron.

    I do not care about level 2 charging standards, my E-Tron charges at over 9 kW all the way to 100% SOC in my garage, good enough for me. I am not driving across the USA using dryer plugs, that sounds like something someone with more time than sense would attempt.
  17. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber

    Fair enough. We are just a retired couple with her three dogs. Efficiency is important to save retirement income.
    We do long range trips to areas that occasionally lack SuperChargers. Headed North, East, or South, no problem. But Western Arkansas and the Midwest have SuperCharger black holes. So I come prepared to bridge the gap.

    Bob Wilson
  18. David Green

    David Green Well-Known Member

    Well, in the first 1K miles the E-Tron is using about $.037 of energy per mile, and of course 1000 kWh of free highway charging was included in the purchase (but not in the + or - 4 cents a mile figure). Our other options, Our Lexus LX uses about $ .23 of energy per mile, or the wife's Range Rover about $.18 per mile (neither are as comfortable or loaded with features as the E-Tron), so the E-Tron saves us substantial $ on travel over our alternatives. Wait, who are we trying to kid, for you buying a Model 3, over your Prius Prime, you are spending more for transportation, as the Tesla price is higher, so when you add the capital cost (plus interest if you financed), and the more expensive insurance / licensing on the Tesla, you will not recover the cost savings in energy that you wasted in capital cost, insurance, etc... And wait until you have your first fender bender, you will be missing the Prius. The Prius Prime had no black holes for driving, and was faster on road trips. Sorry brother, by buying a model 3, you lost time and money, and if saving retirement funds was your ultimate goal, you missed the target. Actually using the supercharger network is nearly the same expense for you as filling the Prius Prime, except with the Prius Prime you can stop at beautiful parks with your wife and dogs, instead of charging stops that are slightly less beautiful.

    I will make it clear, cost for travel had nothing to do with my decision to buy the E-Tron, as I also would have lost on the math. We just wanted an EV, without having to sacrifice and lose features our other vehicles have, and a vehicle that has some refinement in design and build materials and quality, I-Pace was good, but seems a bit lumpy on software, E-Tron is perfect for us so far, still have not seen any software glitch, screen reset, or any other design flaw.. Actually the E-Tron has some cool software features that I noticed this weekend on the road trip, one, it asks you every time you shut it off if you want to extend HVAC, so in hot weather if you are running into a store or something, with one touch as you exit, it keeps the HVAC running for 30 minutes while you are out. There is no drill down in menu's or get out a mobile app, its right there popping up on the main screen when you park. Just 1 touch. same with music, so if you are leaving someone in the car it's great, no need to dig out the key fob, and leave it in the car, just touch touch, and the HVAC and music stay on for up to 30 minutes. You can also program longer, but that requires more touches, or the mobile app.
  19. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber

    Excellent progress. Someday you might generate an equivalent chart to this:
    • three speed benchmarks - 20-30 mph; 40-55 mph, and; 60-80 mph
    • plot them in Excel - just the benchmarks, X-axis speed, and Y-axis consumption
    • add a trend line, 2nd order polynomial and display formula
    • use polynomial with X-axis of speed and Y-axis consumption to make curve
    • the other lines are generated from the traction battery, 100% capacity
    This is one of the first charts I make for every car as I look for optimum cruise speed. I've also done the same using the EPA roll-down coefficients but you have to make assumptions about the drivetrain efficiency. But one point at 62 mph can be pulled from the EPA highway data.
    The benchmark data:
    • Prius Prime drive home - 1,200 mi, 22 gallons of regular, $55 or $0.0458/mi, 22 hours
    • Model 3 drive to Detroit - 711 mi, $24.92 SuperCharger costs, $0.0350/mi, 14:18 (hh:mm)
    We passed 10,000 mi in 100 days and still no oil change or service visit. Our Prius Prime required engine oil and other ICE maintenance per the warranty.

    As for the Prius Prime, I'd stopped driving it because the BMW i3-REx was more fun and cheaper to drive. It had become driveway art. So trading it in for $18,300 roughly gave us ~$10,000 depreciation over 3 years and 16,000 miles. It was a nice ride but not as fun or cheap to drive and operate as the Model 3. Since I wasn't driving it, the Prime became a capital loss.

    No problem as I realize other people have different requirements. The E-Tron meets yours, GOOD!

    As you gain experience with the E-Tron, you'll gain insights. After a year or so, your requirements may change NOT to become a Tesla owner but perhaps to become a former Lexus owner. <grins>

    Bob Wilson
  20. David Green

    David Green Well-Known Member

    Nice Chart Bob, I do not have time or desire to plot my vehicles consumption. I just drive it, and so far is drives quite well, even out performing a Model S 75D on our Oregon trip. My point was if saving money spent on transportation was your primary goal, you lost by buying Model 3, and you lost big time by selling your Prius with 10K in depreciation in 16K miles. Now, I see you moved the goal posts, and having a fun drive is the primary motivation, rather than lowest total transportation cost, but you forgot some items in your calculations( like you always do) Where is the difference in insurance cost on the Model 3 over the Prius? Insurance is indeed an operational cost, no? Oil changes are around $29.99 where I live, and on a Prius I bet they are less as there is not much oil in there. While you are making spreadsheets, perhaps you could chart the complete transportation cost, and show me how much you are saving by using your Model 3... Well at least you are having fun driving it.... ;) You really should have done better analysis before buying the Prime, as that baby was a real loser for you when you consider the lost capital.

    I most likely will be a former Lexus owner sometime soon (we only have 4 garage spaces), I bought that SUV in 2004, and it has served me well, but only has 90K miles as it has never been my primary vehicle. I think I will give it to my brother and his family, at 90K miles it is less than half way used up. For now I have to park my pickup outside, which is fine in the summer, but when frosty window season comes back changes will have to be made.

Share This Page