What Did I Do Wrong? PHEV v Hybrid Ownership Cost

[Keith Smith]

I would also add in my GF's condo development I haven't see a single EV except for rare visitors. None. Zero. The neighboring TH's have one, I believe.

If you live in an older condo, townhouse, apartment complex, an EV just flat out makes no sense. If there is a major remodel you need to upgrade the infrastructure to handle it, but until you've fully amortized the expense of building it all in the first place it is a total waste of resource to rip out perfectly good infrastructure just so you can support EV's. In the mean time, you can create zoning and building codes requiring that any new construction is able to support the additional electric load, regardless of whether or not you install it initially. As the adoption increases, people will look to see if there is a place at their complex they can charge without breaking the bank. My ex was at a newer complex in MA, about 2 years ago. They had 6 L2's in the front. The cost is minimal for any new construction to put the stuff in but nobody in their right mind should tear up their complex or condo until they need to. At some point you have to replace a parking structure or something, or there is a problem with a feed line, blah, you build it back better. Or you find you are getting lower rents because you don't have charging availability, ... Now the ROI is there to put it in.

 

[Keith Smith]

Got nothing to do with politics, just cost, depreciation, and lack of charging infrastructure. People vote with their wallets and buying an EV is still a very bad financial decision for mainstream drivers.

I don't think so. You keep using the word 'mainstream'. I think what you mean is 'Urban', or perhaps many middle to lower class people. I also would not call it a "very bad" financial decision. It would be cool to own a brand new BMW M5 or something, but that would not be a good financial decision for me. I can't afford/justify a $150K car, though I could work it out and buy one if I really, really wanted to. There are plenty of folks where that would not be a show stopper if they really wanted the vehicle, and can afford it ( my sister could pay cash, and not bat an eye ).

I bought both of my EV's gently used because I wanted electric cars. I paid less than $30K for the Kona, and less than $40K for the Niro, at the time new they would have been $45 and $55K respectively. I would have had to pay around $20K and $30K at the time for an equivalent ICE, so I shelled out an extra $10K for each vehicle. It's just not that much amortized over say a 5 year life for the vehicle, and caused me no unusual financial burden, I got financing that was extremely aggressive like 2% on both, my electric rates here are very low, I put in solar to have fun with that as well, my commute and driving lends it self extremely well to using an EV for transportation.

If your only reason for selecting a vehicle is to get buy as cheaply as possible and save the most money, I'd look at something like a 2012ish Camry or Accord. Maybe a mini-van if you have young kids and car seats.

 

[Puppethead]

EV growth rose again in 2024, despite media & political lies saying otherwise

Among all the false focus on EV sales throughout the year, relatively fewer headlines have noted that global gas car sales hit their peak in 2017, have not hit that peak again, and likely will never hit that peak again. They’re down about a quarter from that peak, and show no signs of recovering, as it’s likely that any increase in vehicle sales will be taken up by growth in EV sales, not gas car sales.​

 

[ENirogus]

Got nothing to do with politics, just cost, depreciation, and lack of charging infrastructure. People vote with their wallets and buying an EV is still a very bad financial decision for mainstream drivers.

If that is what you are convincing yourself of, sure. The average ICE car was over 50k last year. There are many,many choices at that cost for an EV
People keep saying there is demand for lower priced EVs then buying 60k ICe vehicles

 

[Raylo]

The problem is that probably 50% or more of the population lives in "older" condos, apartments, and townhomes. Older in your usage must mean anything built before yesterday because none here have any EV infrastructure whatsoever, nor do any HOA rules that I know of allow for the installation of EVSE on common parking areas. This is mainstream suburbia here and no, it's not "lower class". LOL. This is a fairly wealthy area. Lots of good jobs and $$$ homes. But how do these folks first afford EVs which are generally more $ than their ICE equivalents and then how do they charge them with no access at home and very limited and very $$ public charging infrastructure? These are some of the biggest challenges to mainstream electrification. Sorry, I am going to keep using that word, mainstream. And just because an EV works for you doesn't make one a reasonable option for many tens of millions of others.

If you live in an older condo, townhouse, apartment complex, an EV just flat out makes no sense.

 

[ENirogus]

I've been comparing costs of PHEVs with hybrids and found that driving a PHEV within its battery range (electric only) costs more than driving a hybrid. I don't trust my result, so please clue me in. I used the EPA range divided by the battery size to get the miles per kWh then divided my electricity cost by miles per kWh. A sample result was 3.31 miles per kWh for the Prius Prime. At $.28/kWh (yes, California energy is expensive) the Prime costs $.0861 per mile. Its hybrid brother gets an EPA mileage of 57 mpg. At $4 per gallon (again, California energy) it costs $.0702 per mile to drive the mixed energy hybrid- about 18% cheaper. Every one says the PHEV energy cost savings will make up for the initial higher purchase price. My numbers say not true. So... what did I do wrong?

I want to circle back to the OP
While this is an honest evaluation, it is also pretty much worst case.
A better comparison is how many miles did you get out of that tank, or how many miles per gallon over a year compared to kwh consumed in an EV or PHEV.

What does a prius regular hybrid actually get for overall mileage? quick look says maybe high 40s. That is really where the error is. Little over 8 cents per mile real world rather than a little under


What does a prius prime cost to charge? at .28/kwh and 11.5kw for a full charge, 3.22
That should get you about 40 miles, .08 per mile.

Different electric and gas costs will change that
I think my electric/gas costs will flip that the other way since my gas is somewhat cheaper

With a straight EV there is pretty much no number where gas will beat home charging

 

[Raylo]

No argument there!

With a straight EV there is pretty much no number where gas will beat home charging

 

[Keith Smith]

The problem is that probably 50% or more of the population lives in "older" condos, apartments, and townhomes. Older in your usage must mean anything built before yesterday because none here have any EV infrastructure whatsoever, nor do any HOA rules that I know of allow for the installation of EVSE on common parking areas. This is mainstream suburbia here and no, it's not "lower class". LOL. This is a fairly wealthy area. Lots of good jobs and $$$ homes. But how do these folks first afford EVs which are generally more $ than their ICE equivalents and then how do they charge them with no access at home and very limited and very $$ public charging infrastructure? These are some of the biggest challenges to mainstream electrification. Sorry, I am going to keep using that word, mainstream. And just because an EV works for you doesn't make one a reasonable option for many tens of millions of others.

Disingenuous. "Mainstream Electrification" now there is a word.

If you live in a single family home and you have 100A or better service, (Almost everything is 200A these days) you can just install your own EVSE which is the sane thing to do no matter what. It is trivial to put in a 30A EVSE (240@24A continuous ~5600W, more than sufficient for overnight charging) and they make boxes to share your electric dryer or HWH circuit if your a little light on power in the panel. If you have separated parking in a condo, well sir . . . Condo's have associations, up to you to join the board and get it done. EV's have only been viable for about 10 years, and "mainstream" for 3 or so. so I would not expect any condo built 3 or more years ago to have charging infrastructure. OTOH, I would expect it to have the power availability at the local level to retrofit it without breaking the bank. If you have rear parking in a townhouse with 80-100A service, It would be fairly simple to install a full 20A or better circuit (16A@240V, 3600W, generally sufficient as well) you could get to. I was actually discussing this very thing with my sister at her condo, they have dedicated under-unit parking, panel is in the storage closet.

The cost/effort of installing an EVSE in a place with a more modern electrical infrastructure is minimal and trivial. That should be factored in if you are buying one.

 

[Keith Smith]

If that is what you are convincing yourself of, sure. The average ICE car was over 50k last year. There are many,many choices at that cost for an EV
People keep saying there is demand for lower priced EVs then buying 60k ICe vehicles

Excellent point. To this point . . .

You can figure about $10-12K extra for an EV vs ICE. As you add on and get to the fully loaded trim packages the percentage gap starts to go way down. If financing the payment difference just isn't that significant.

 

[Keith Smith]

I think some people have a mistaken idea that you need to put in 350KW DCFC's everywhere to support EV's. I've mentioned in a couple of other threads, for day-to-day charging you really don't need that much service. If you can plug in every night, 99.9% of people could get by on a 240V/20A Level 2, mostly because you don't really care if it takes 10 hours to charge your car overnight, and most people don't tap the batteries to near zero every day.

 

[ENirogus]

OTOH, I would expect it to have the power availability at the local level to retrofit it without breaking the bank. If you have rear parking in a townhouse with 80-100A service, It would be fairly simple to install a full 20A or better circuit (16A@240V, 3600W, generally sufficient as well) you could get to.

I have for 3 1/2 years had a 20 amp 240 EVSE and it has never failed to do what is needed. One would need a very inefficient EV[cough cough hummer] with a long commute to 'need' more than that in a day. A Hummer might only get 5 miles in an hour of charging, where my Kia gets 10

 

[ENirogus]

Truth be told, very few situations where I could not have charged on 120 volts, I don't think I have ever done 150+ miles 2 days in a row, which would exceed the ability to charge at 120 volts. If I was rewiring a condo complex it would make a lot more sense to wire every slot with 120 volts, then a few dedicated higher current 240 volt slots. Truth is there is no more wire involved in wiring for 240 over 120 at the same current, but if you are talking a lot of slots then that becomes a lot of current

 

[Keith Smith]

Truth be told, very few situations where I could not have charged on 120 volts, I don't think I have ever done 150+ miles 2 days in a row, which would exceed the ability to charge at 120 volts. If I was rewiring a condo complex it would make a lot more sense to wire every slot with 120 volts, then a few dedicated higher current 240 volt slots. Truth is there is no more wire involved in wiring for 240 over 120 at the same current, but if you are talking a lot of slots then that becomes a lot of current

Indeed. My son had a 240/20 in his garage when I came to visit I used with the 120/240 16A cheapo Chinese charger I had. We actually wired a 240/50 in his garage while I was there, I never used it, but he wanted to buy a Tesla, which he did, and wanted a big circuit just because. I think his Tesla charges at 9KW, I really don't know, but again, nobody really needs it for home. I'd put in whatever I could get away with #8 wire will handle any of the lower end EV's to 40/32A charging. We ran #6, but the panel was right there in the garage, about 15 feet up and over to a NEMA 6/50. Kind of depends on where your stuff is, we actually came off a 100A sub-panel, the rest of the circuits were various 120v, and he 240/20 in the garage. The range, HWH and HVAC were tied to the 200A panel on the side of the house, I think the prior homeowner had wired it in as a critical loads panel. An electrician would probably have done it for $400 or so.

A workplace associate had a Niro just like mine in a rental townhouse. He showed me the Dryer splitter boxes. Ran the cord out a window. If I owned it, you could have run about 20' of 1/2" conduit outside to an outlet and poked a hole thru the wall to the box.

Which takes us back around to the PHEV. 240/20 is actually ideal for a PHEV, I had installed a 240/30 NEMA 6-30 in my garage when I did some other re-wiring. I leveraged it for my PHEV when I bought it.

https://www.caranddriver.com/rankings/best-electric-cars

Car and driver now lists a plethora of electric vehicles for 2025, No less than 15 different models on the front page with the new 2025 Leaf coming in with a starting price under $30K. Claiming electric cars are not "mainstream" is just silly. They are no longer scarce, and there are plenty of companies selling a range of vehicle types. The adoption of J3400/NACS will be the icing on the cake. I saw a new Niro EV in a coffee brown/grey on the way home. Tesla's are everywhere around here, my boss just bought a BMW something or other (big SUV).