Too good to be true?

[coutinpe]

15% of greenhouse gasses come from livestock - 29% from vehicles. We'd still have had to deal with global warming - it's just that the onset would have been a few years more distant in the future.

I have always wondered how big was the percentage of greenhouse gases coming from the massive herds of millions and millions of bison roaming the plains of North America just 150 years ago or so. And when I think about all the huge African fauna that has disappeared over the last decades, my head spins even faster. Imagine all those millions of elephants, rhinoceroses, hippos, zebras, horses and all the other big mammals letting methane come out of their tailpipes at the same time! Probably that was the reason the Vikings were able to raise sheep and grow wheat in Greenland 1000 years ago... But wait! The Greenland Vikings were finished by that "little ice age" that came later in the Middle Ages. We had another in the 1700s, we could have yet another one down the road. Of course, many people can't believe science doesn't know everything...yet...

 

[Landshark]

The whole controversy stems from what is available to replace a Clarity. As @Landshark said, there is no comparable alternative. What I was complaining about is the refusal of Honda (and GM, BTW) to build PHEVs based on "some sort of feeling they sense", without any consideration of the (possibly large) potential market PHEVs still may have.

I don’t claim to have my finger on the pulse of the automobile manufacturers thought process. However, it is likely driven by mandates and focus groups.

The mandates come from politicians, need I say more? And focus groups provide nothing more than opinions of the misinformed.

Interestingly, the top selling PHEV is the Wrangler 4xe, so maybe we’ll continue to see the introduction of more PHEV’s.

 

[Dan Albrich]

With regard to the bigger picture of getting people to burn less gas as it relates to vehicles, I think incentives make the most sense. Make it same cost to buy a PHEV or BEV as the competing gas vehicle of similar design. The $7500 nonrefundable tax credit is/was a good idea-- but making it fully refundable would help lower income folks who have less tax liability and for those less savvy about creating tax liability (i.e. Roth, etc). And PHEV's really do save gas. For my commute, its all electric. I sometimes go a month without burning any gas. Longer trips every other month do burn some gas, but at 40mpg.

There's a nice opinion piece in nytimes talking about the material savings of smaller hybrid or PHEV batteries, and their relatively higher bang for the buck here:
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/14/opinion/electric-vehicles-toyota-hybrids.html

Excerpt from the linked article for those who don't subscribe:

"Imagine some wheelbarrows filled with rocks. The rocks contain lithium, cobalt, manganese, nickel, graphite and other materials for lithium-ion batteries. By Toyota’s calculation, the amount of rocks needed for one long-range electric vehicle would be enough for either six plug-in hybrids or 90 of the type of hybrid that can’t be plugged in for a recharge. (Namely, the type whose batteries are recharged from the engine or from braking.)

“The overall carbon reduction of those 90 hybrids over their lifetimes is 37 times as much as a single battery electric vehicle,” Toyota argues. That’s a stunning statistic if true."

 

[Kerbe]

A relevant video that popped up in my feed today...

 

[Landshark]

I have always wondered how big was the percentage of greenhouse gases coming from the massive herds of millions and millions of bison roaming the plains of North America just 150 years ago or so.

The charts below should help.

 

[Landshark]

The $7500 nonrefundable tax credit is/was a good idea-- but making it fully refundable would help lower income folks who have less tax liability and for those less savvy about creating tax liability (i.e. Roth, etc).

What I’d rather see is the $4000 credit for a used electrified vehicle not be restricted to vehicles sold by a dealer. Let’s face it, low income individuals aren’t buying new cars and they probably aren’t buying used cars from dealers. It’s a political SNAFU that sounds good on paper but smells like a turd upon review.

By Toyota’s calculation, the amount of rocks needed for one long-range electric vehicle would be enough for either six plug-in hybrids or 90 of the type of hybrid that can’t be plugged in for a recharge

I brought this up on the forum a few years ago. The EV purists don’t want to hear it. That may sound divisive to some. It is however, based on the statements made by those who seem to believe that a BEV is the only option. It’s narrow mindedness by choice and that appears to be a very popular choice these days.

Back to the topic of incentives. The critical minerals and battery requirements are going to necessitate that the permitting process for domestic mining operations, such as Thacker Pass, be expedited rather than stonewalled.

 

[Dan Albrich]

Yeah, I really like the idea of a credit on the used electric vehicles. That makes sense to me. And you sort of have to balance (be practical) in regard to ideal state and what is attainable presently. You bracket a problem and do what can be done.

Not really the forum for climate change as a whole, but if we made March 2020 our world-wide normal consumption, we could see real progress. We still have people who don't believe climate change exists; the sound-bite culture that lacks the ability (or desire) to find data and analyze it.

 

[CFBrand3rd]

If it is like what I get from my local dealer, it is not a guaranteed offer, just a first expectation for trade-in credit. They will evaluate the car and then provide a hard offer. Again, it isn't a cash offer to buy, just a trade-in credit for a new car. Then they have their mark-up on the new car as a buffer and they don't have to discount if the trade-in credit is unduly high.

Yup; I’ve been getting these letters from the Toyota dealer offering to buy my Prius; the same Prius I traded in back in 2019. They have no idea what I own or it’s condition. It’s strictly to get you on property. Throw the letter away…


Sent from my iPad using Inside EVs

 

[rodeknyt]

15% of greenhouse gasses come from livestock - 29% from vehicles. We'd still have had to deal with global warming - it's just that the onset would have been a few years more distant in the future. And I should have known better than to engage a troll in conversation.

Since adding you to his ignore list, I don't think he can see posts from more than about 3-4 members any more.

 

[Kerbe]

They have no idea what I own

My local Honda dealer still sends me offers and notices about the Fit they sold me in 2010 - and which I used as a trade-in some seven years ago. And they've been servicing the Clarity so they actually KNOW what I drive!

 

[Landshark]

Yup; I’ve been getting these letters from the Toyota dealer offering to buy my Prius; the same Prius I traded in back in 2019. They have no idea what I own or it’s condition. It’s strictly to get you on property. Throw the letter away…


Sent from my iPad using Inside EVs

We had a Scion xB for a few years that we bought used from a Mitsubishi dealer. I’d taken it to the Toyota dealer for oil changes. The Toyota dealer sent a letter offering $9500 for the car. I took it in. They wrote a check for $9500. Haven’t heard from them since.