Taycan unveiled

  • Thread starter Thread starter David Green
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David Green

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The car is beautiful, and the spec sheet awesome, but the price?? higher than expected...
Screen Shot 2019-09-04 at 7.03.14 AM.webp
 
As per this report, The starting price is $152,000. Is this what you were referring to?
https://www.caranddriver.com/porsche/taycan
https://techcrunch.com/2019/09/04/porsche-taycan-vs-tesla-model-s-spec-for-spec-price-for-price/

I know there were articles as late as yesterday claiming a price of $86,000 (https://insideevs.com/news/335243/porsche-ceo-puts-mission-e-price-at-85000/) but that does not seem to be the case today.

If you remember, I was very skeptical that this car would be sold for the $90,000 to $130,000 range that you had stated. Even then I was wrong as I thought it would start around $130k+, not $150K. No doubt it is a great car, but it is again not the Tesla X/S killer that it was made out to be. At $150K, I am sure there is a market for it, but you are not get too many people looking at S/X moving over and buying this. Not sure about your surgeon friend, is she having second thoughts? Also note that the WLTP rating is 279 miles, which will come down to around 225 miles in EPA compared to 370 miles for the S.
 
interestedinEV said:
As per this report, The starting price is $152,000. Is this what you were referring to?
https://www.caranddriver.com/porsche/taycan
https://techcrunch.com/2019/09/04/porsche-taycan-vs-tesla-model-s-spec-for-spec-price-for-price/

I know there were articles as late as yesterday claiming a price of $86,000 (https://insideevs.com/news/335243/porsche-ceo-puts-mission-e-price-at-85000/) but that does not seem to be the case today.

If you remember, I was very skeptical that this car would be sold for the $90,000 to $130,000 range that you had stated. Even then I was wrong as I thought it would start around $130k+, not $150K. No doubt it is a great car, but it is again not the Tesla X/S killer that it was made out to be. At $150K, I am sure there is a market for it, but you are not get too many people looking at S/X moving over and buying this. Not sure about your surgeon friend, is she having second thoughts? Also note that the WLTP rating is 279 miles, which will come down to around 225 miles in EPA compared to 370 miles for the S.
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Clearly I am surprised but the high price, and the Taycan is too expensive for me, at least in this initial configuration, but they will sell some as Tesla used to have S and X priced at similar levels before they had to discount them to maintain sales volumes. I think Porsche is trying to recoup their program investment on these early models, and then will lower he price to keep there values at respectable levels.

Taycan will not kill Tesla, but merely another nail in the coffin as they will take some high end business, and of course Tesla has no competitor on the performance front. Model S Raven can only beat Taycan 0-60 after engaging Ludicrous mode, and acknowledging this will lower battery and motor life and wait 10 minutes for the battery to condition, my guess in surprise street encounters, the Taycan with repeated 0-60 in 2.6 sec performance will smoke the Tesla. And stopping, haha Look at the brake size on the Tesla S in comparison... haha! Everyone knows Model S overheats when times get tough...

My guess is any surgeon that wants the Taycan can easily afford it.... but I will update you if my friend actually follows through buying it, and I cannot wait to see Taycan on a road trip with that amazing charge rate...
 
David Green said:
Clearly I am surprised but the high price, and the Taycan is too expensive for me, at least in this initial configuration, but they will sell some as Tesla used to have S and X priced at similar levels before they had to discount them to maintain sales volumes. I think Porsche is trying to recoup their program investment on these early models, and then will lower he price to keep there values at respectable levels.

Taycan will not kill Tesla, but merely another nail in the coffin as they will take some high end business, ...
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You have to look at the S today and compare with Tycan Today. Some sales may be lost but it will be in the margins. The Taycan Turbo is at $185K, almost double the S. Tesla has been able to amortize a lot of the R & D/Engineering costs and hence can price it cheaper. This is where the problem lies for other manufacturers. They have to sell in volumes to recover these costs quickly. To sell in high volumes, it has to priced less than $50-60K. It also cannot be a no frills small car. No manufacturer has responded with a true Tesla Killer. A True Tesla Killer has to have
  1. The range of a Tesla at least in the US. Europe with its mass transportation and driving habits, will accept lower ranges
  2. At the least basic luxury features and size
  3. A developed charging network where they have some control
  4. Reasonably priced for features and capabilities.

All the cars that are in the market lack one or more of the features. Maybe the Crozz or the new Chevy may try and meet most of these criteria. No matter what you say, I think real competition is at least 1 year away if not more. This gives Tesla time to be prepared.
 
interestedinEV said:
You have to look at the S today and compare with Tycan Today. Some sales may be lost but it will be in the margins. The Taycan Turbo is at $185K, almost double the S. Tesla has been able to amortize a lot of the R & D/Engineering costs and hence can price it cheaper. This is where the problem lies for other manufacturers. They have to sell in volumes to recover these costs quickly. To sell in high volumes, it has to priced less than $50-60K. It also cannot be a no frills small car. No manufacturer has responded with a true Tesla Killer. A True Tesla Killer has to have
  1. The range of a Tesla at least in the US. Europe with its mass transportation and driving habits, will accept lower ranges
  2. At the least basic luxury features and size
  3. A developed charging network where they have some control
  4. Reasonably priced for features and capabilities.

All the cars that are in the market lack one or more of the features. Maybe the Crozz or the new Chevy may try and meet most of these criteria. No matter what you say, I think real competition is at least 1 year away if not more. This gives Tesla time to be prepared.
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1-4 are your definitions of a Tesla Killer, I see it differently... Tesla is already dying, look at their Sales 2018 / 2019, S and X are dying, and Model 3 is not backing up its 2018 numbers in the USA now that we have production ramped quantities. Comparing Q 1 and Q2 2019 to 2018 is not a good comparison because in 2018 Tesla was still ramping Model 3... The last week of June 2018 is when Tesla Model 3 production hit its stride, But 2019 its losing USA volume, and the factory was closed for the 3 day holiday weekend,

As for your Tesla having one more year, hmmm, they have lost money the last 2 qtrs and Q3 is looking like a real loser so far, how long can they keep losing money? See what the stock is doing after Inside EV released the sales estimates, its tanking, on a day the rest of the market is up...

You fail to understand the car market, and make all of your comparisons on Tesla's strengths, How much does it cost for Tesla that can do repeated qtr mile runs? How much for Tesla that can circle the Nurburgring in 7:42? How about a Tesla that has decorative interior LED lighting? Gesture operated Tailgate? Cooled and massage seats? How about Tesla that looks good? Model S is dates, and even the Tesla tubers that went to the Taycan reveal said it looks amazing... Pretty car is priceless.
 
Good looking car. Just good enough range, but horribly inefficient.

Taycan 100 kwh, 250 miles range (WLTP)
Model S 100 kwh, 370 miles range (EPA).

Real world we're looking at over 50% range advantage to Tesla. I don't understand how the Taycan can be so inefficient. Hopefully this inefficiency doesn't materialize in VW ID range.
 
gooki said:
Good looking car. Just good enough range, but horribly inefficient.

Taycan 100 kwh, 250 miles range (WLTP)
Model S 100 kwh, 370 miles range (EPA).

Real world we're looking at over 50% range advantage to Tesla. I don't understand how the Taycan can be so inefficient. Hopefully this inefficiency doesn't materialize in VW ID range.
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The dual motor, Model S, uses a permanent magnet (PM) motor on the rear and induction motor in the front. One attribute of an induction motor is it can spin without magnetic field effect drag. Spin a PM motor and you will have variable amounts of drag.

Some of the Taycan reviews report the front and rear motors are PM. That will increase the rolling drag and reduce range.

Bob Wilson
 
In addition to what @bwilson4web says, the Turbo S is about 240 pounds heavier, even the size is a little smaller (though very comparable). The Tesla Model S has a 100 kWh battery pack, and the Taycan uses a 93 kWh pack. And possibly some of the advanced electronics add some extra energy usage. So I am not sure there is one reason why the range is lower, but a combination of a lot of things, whose cumulative effect is to reduce range considerably. Hence it does not seem likely that Porsche can tweak a few small things like the software and increase the range. It might need some major engineering changes. (And needless to say the price of the Taycan Turbo S compared to Tesla S Performance is about double. Hence Taycan Turbo will appeal only to the hardcore enthusiast with a lot of money in their pocket)

https://www.autoblog.com/2019/09/04/porsche-taycan-tesla-model-s-comparison/?yptr=yahoo

Screen-Shot-2019-09-04-at-3.29.50-PM.jpg
 
Specs are very similar, but the biggest knock against the S (and all Teslas) is the sparse interior. You want performance, but comfort and a little bling is nice, too.
 
R P said:
Specs are very similar, but the biggest knock against the S (and all Teslas) is the sparse interior. You want performance, but comfort and a little bling is nice, too.
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Right. The question is "at what cost?" If there is 20 or 30% premium, one could talk it away. When the cost is almost double, it becomes harder to justify.
 
interestedinEV said:
Right. The question is "at what cost?" If there is 20 or 30% premium, one could talk it away. When the cost is almost double, it becomes harder to justify.
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Well, in that market segment, comfy and bling can't be sacrificed on the total package. This is where Tesla needs to really step it up. And stop with the all the proprietary stuff. My son with his M3 still has to have a mobile phone active to get his Waze traffic cop alerts because Android Auto and Carplay are not supported.
 
R P said:
Well, in that market segment, comfy and bling can't be sacrificed on the total package. This is where Tesla needs to really step it up. And stop with the all the proprietary stuff. My son with his M3 still has to have a mobile phone active to get his Waze traffic cop alerts because Android Auto and Carplay are not supported.
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M3 ~ $50,000, S is between $80,000 to $100,000. Taycan is between $152,000 and $187,000. The price ranges are vastly different, features will be different. One cannot expect M3 to have all the features of the Taycan. Vastly different markets and vastly different volumes.
 
interestedinEV said:
M3 ~ $50,000, S is between $80,000 to $100,000. Taycan is between $152,000 and $187,000. The price ranges are vastly different, features will be different. One cannot expect M3 to have all the features of the Taycan. Vastly different markets and vastly different volumes.
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Yeah, but the S and X are not much better. Son had both of those as loaner cars while his was in the shop, and took me for a ride in them. Other than the power, I was not impressed.
 
R P said:
Yeah, but the S and X are not much better. Son had both of those as loaner cars while his was in the shop, and took me for a ride in them. Other than the power, I was not impressed.
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No first hand knowledge but I am willing to concede that the Taycan is a very refined and top of the market car. However, it is not at a price range that I am in. Hence it is not for me and many others. I am sure there are a few who are willing to pay for it but I doubt if many of them are people who seriously looked at S/X. If my guess is right, most of them would be would have looked at other Porsche's, or people looking at cars like the high end Mercedes or Ferrari or Lamborghini etc.
 
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Other than the lack of door pockets, I found the Tesla Model S interior to be very good for it's market segment.

I guess some of the Taycan inefficiency comes down to Porsche ensuring itdrives like a Porsche. Wide wheels etc.
 
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