Preconditioning as Major Way to Increase Winter Range

turtleturtle

turtleturtle

Active Member
https://www.usatoday.com/restricted...ng-range-battery-pre-conditioning/5015932001/

I don’t know if I really believe this. Helpful, sure, but doesn’t fix the fact that the EPA range is done at 70F.

So for the Clarity, this would mean while at 100% charge (on 120v), to schedule the car to precondition the cabin every morning before you leave for work, not so the car will be comfortable, but to “significantly” extend your range.
 
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Thank you - but note you have to be a usatoday subscriber to read the article....

turtleturtle said:
https://www.usatoday.com/restricted/?return=https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2021/05/09/ford-mustang-driving-range-battery-pre-conditioning/5015932001/

I don’t know if I really believe this. Helpful, sure, but doesn’t fix the fact that the EPA range is done at 70F.

So for the Clarity, this would mean while at 100% charge (on 120v), to schedule the car to precondition the cabin every morning before you leave for work, not so the car will be comfortable, but to “significantly” extend your range.
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turtleturtle said:
I don’t know if I really believe this.
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What exactly, don’t you know if you really believe?

That heating or cooling the cabin with electricity from the grid, rather than the batteries, will improve EV range?

What about the “fact” that EPA range is established at 70F needs to be fixed?

Yes, if you precondition the car while plugged in, it will both, be more comfortable and give you more EV range.
 
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Landshark said:
What exactly, don’t you know if you really believe?

That heating or cooling the cabin with electricity from the grid, rather than the batteries, will improve EV range?

What about the “fact” that EPA range is established at 70F needs to be fixed?

Yes, if you precondition the car while plugged in, it will both, be more comfortable and give you more EV range.
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The CS Rep from Ford seems to hang his hat heavily on how preconditioning will be a great solution to get more range. That’s deflecting the issue to something else. Sure, it will help, but it’s not going to make up for a car rated at 300 miles getting 220 or less in the winter.

EPA does city and highway miles. They should do cold and warm weather miles.
 
turtleturtle said:
EPA does city and highway miles. They should do cold and warm weather miles.
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Amen. And I believe the fact that they don’t, will suppress widespread adoption of EVs. Right here on this forum many EV owners in cold climates are disillusioned at how badly range drops when temp drops…nearly 50% at times. If EV enthusiasts are disillusioned, my prediction is that the average owner who just wants good transportation will be downright ticked off…and will be highly unlikely to purchase again, much less promote the vehicle to others, etc…

IMO epa and/or mfrs need to show sort of a sliding scale range. City/hwy ratings at 70 degrees don’t cut it. Show a graph….city/hwy range at 90, 70, 50, 30, 10, and -10 degrees F. With that data a consumer in most of the US can make an informed choice. Not everyone in the US lives in temperate CA….and I predict that to be a big problem for the EV industry with today’s battery technology and lack of quick charge capabilities, compared to the 3 minutes of time it takes to just fill a fuel tank to go another 300 miles. I know based on my Clarity ownership experience I’ve already decided that my next new vehicle is far more likely to be a gasmobile….MAYBE another PHEV, but ABSOLUTELY not an EV. They just wouldn’t work well enough for my typical usage.

And preconditioning doesn’t gain much range at 0 degrees ambient temp…maybe a few miles? Less than 5 for sure. Nor is it even an alternative when you leave work to drive home, and your employer doesn’t provide a charger for your car while it’s parked there…
 
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I agree EV "sweep ranges" could be helpful to some.

The problem I sometimes encounter with preheating is it either seems to (a) make the battery so full that the first stop triggers the ICE (while I'm in town and EV would be most efficient, not to mention by not using EV I'll be even more likely to trip it again on the few miles back home, face palm) or (b) it seems like the car uses more from the battery than the house (L2) is providing and after I start to drive 2 miles the range drops like 7...
 
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turtleturtle said:
Sure, it will help, but it’s not going to make up for a car rated at 300 miles getting 220 or less in the winter.
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I’m not a BEV fan, but I believe it takes nothing short of willful ignorance to be surprised by the fact that BEV’s lose significant range in cold temperatures. Now add in the fast charge to 80% and the 300 mile car will have less than 200 miles of range.

Of course the EV purists will argue that 99% of the time the typical driver will only need to drive 20-30 miles, so 200 is more than necessary. And, with the larger battery capacity, the SOC can be kept in some fantasy Goldilocks zone of 40-60% to preserve longevity.
 
craze1cars said:
And I believe the fact that they don’t, will suppress widespread adoption of EVs.
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I doubt it. They’ll continue to publish “best case” figures and people will eat it up. EV’s sales will increase tremendously in the next few years. Despite disappointing range in cold weather, owners will will be giddy about how it is the best car they’ve ever owned.

I agree, our next “new” vehicle will be a PHEV or my 22 year old gas truck will get upgraded to a 12-15 year old pre-DEF diesel truck.
 
So yep, i'm one of those who sees significant degradation between winter and summer. I'd also add that current vehicles are going to have problems with -22 and below. Thankfully, this isn't an issue living in Oregon (we basically never get that cold) but if you live in a northern state think northern Montana or north Dakota, that's a real possible temperature.

Also, I've been pre-conditioning for years in an unheated garage. Doesn't make much difference for me. I maybe get 3 miles more of EV range from not running the heater right away, but nothing that blows your hair back. My Clarity gets 28 EV miles in the winter period. It doesn't get more, that's just how it is. When we get into summer, I get 38-43 miles of EV range. Maybe 1 day a year I get the advertised 47. That's about it.

I like Clarity and am not upset, but the advertised figures don't match my reality. I'll add that I live about 1600 feet above sea level, so the hill figures prominently, but I totally agree that giving folks a realistic winter/summer mileage would help loads.
 
I live in MA and in the winter I now see about 35 and at 70 degrees I see 47 on my 2018 Clarity (3.5 years old). I have seen as much as the low 50s at times. It is always plugged in to a Level 2 charger and I have not filled the tank for about 1.5 years and it has still just over 1/2 left. I currently drive about 200 miles/month and pre-COVID it was 900 miles/month. I always precondition the car if it is cold or hot outside. It seems like it does not do much unless it is colder the 50 F. I found a curve for temperature vs range for some other EV and the Clarity curve is basically the same.
 
Landshark said:
They’ll continue to publish “best case” figures and people will eat it up.
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The EPA's range test suite provides a way to do an apples-to-apples comparison when choosing which EV to buy. Those EPA numbers are certainly not as "best-case" as the NEDC (New European Driving Cycle) or WLTP (Worldwide Harmonised Light Vehicle Test Procedure) range numbers we always get first, before being disappointed later when manufacturers finally reveal the EPA numbers they've been keeping from the public as long as possible.
 
insightman said:
The EPA's range test suite provides a way to do an apples-to-apples comparison when choosing which EV to buy. Those EPA numbers are certainly not as "best-case" as the NEDC (New European Driving Cycle) or WLTP (Worldwide Harmonised Light Vehicle Test Procedure) range numbers we always get first, before being disappointed later when manufacturers finally reveal the EPA numbers they've been keeping from the public as long as possible.
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Point being, the EPA figures and manufacturers claims are not derived from test conditions that include freezing temperatures. The impact of cold temperatures on batteries and EV’s is not a recent development. It isn’t a secret. It is well documented and there is an abundance of information available to anyone who can look past the glitzy advertisements and dig more than an inch deep into the matter. It is astounding that anyone is unaware of, or surprised by this situation.

Now, can you share with the rest of the class some of that secret EPA information they’ve been keeping from us?
 
Landshark said:
Point being, the EPA figures and manufacturers claims are not derived from test conditions that include freezing temperatures. The impact of cold temperatures on batteries and EV’s is not a recent development. It isn’t a secret. It is well documented and there is an abundance of information available to anyone who can look past the glitzy advertisements and dig more than an inch deep into the matter. It is astounding that anyone is unaware of, or surprised by this situation.

Now, can you share with the rest of the class some of that secret EPA information they’ve been keeping from us?
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I'm sorry I wasn't clear. There are no secrets. I meant to write manufacturers finally reveal the EPA numbers they've been keeping from the public as long as possible.
 
insightman said:
I'm sorry I wasn't clear. There are no secrets. I meant to write manufacturers finally reveal the EPA numbers they've been keeping from the public as long as possible.
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What numbers are those dirty bastards keeping from the public? Aren’t the cars tested under a certain set of repeatable conditions? Aren’t those the numbers that are posted on the window sticker? Are they engaged is some sort of collusion with the auto manufacturers?

Are you suggesting that they know EV’s get s#itty range in cold temperatures and they’re not revealing this information? I’m not following what you may be alleging.
 
You are missing the point

On a new car model they usually first put out the expected range using the other test models and only publish the EPA range (which is always lower) at the last minute
 
JFon101231 said:
You are missing the point

On a new car model they usually first put out the expected range using the other test models and only publish the EPA range (which is always lower) at the last minute
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What range estimate or mpg figure is on the car when it is purchased?

Are there range estimates for driving in freezing temperatures and warm temperatures for either ICE or BEV’s?

The primary gripe of this thread seems to be a car with a stated range of 300 miles, that only gets 220 miles in cold temperatures. This revelation should not come as a surprise to anyone.

The secondary gripe is that preconditioning does not restore the lost 80 miles of range. This should not come as a surprise either.

I bought the Clarity which had an advertised range of 47 EV miles. Advertised in brochures and posted on the window. The car has achieved that distance close to 200 times in the past ~2 years. It has exceeded the stated range several dozen times, with at least a handful of trips over 60 miles. It has also gone only 35-40 miles. In all cases the driving conditions, speed, temperatures and terrain, fully explain the variations in range.

Maybe this is an ongoing learning experience for buyers who believe an EV with a stated or claimed range of 300 miles, will always go 300 miles regardless of the driving conditions.

If the point is comparing hyped manufacturers estimates to EPA estimates, I’m happy to miss the point. In the EV industry in particular, there’s a tremendous amount of BS.
 
Landshark said:
I’m not a BEV fan, but I believe it takes nothing short of willful ignorance to be surprised by the fact that BEV’s lose significant range in cold temperatures. Now add in the fast charge to 80% and the 300 mile car will have less than 200 miles of range.

Of course the EV purists will argue that 99% of the time the typical driver will only need to drive 20-30 miles, so 200 is more than necessary. And, with the larger battery capacity, the SOC can be kept in some fantasy Goldilocks zone of 40-60% to preserve longevity.
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These two points are tightly related. The EV fanboys try to convince everyone that EVs have no real limitations and are perfect for everyone. So, one who is surprised by the limitations isn't necessarily ignorant, but more so gullible or easily manipulated.

EV adoption by the masses will happen more easily when everyone is honest. I believe we need to see range stats for recommended battery operating range as well as cold weather range to really win people over. Pretending a car has a 300 mile range when one should only operate the car from 20-80% is false advertising IMO.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
The rules for labeling and advertising energy consumption (fuel and electrons) are heavily regulated. The window sticker requirements are in 40 CFR 600 Subpart D. The guidance for advertising is in 16 CFR 259.

In short, the window sticker can only have results from the EPA test and advertising anything other than that can get the manufacturer in trouble under 15 USC 45 (Unfair Competition).

The EPA test is accurate and repeatable UNDER THE TEST CONDITIONS. If the test conditions are modified, the test results will be different, but will still only be accurate under THOSE test conditions. So, assume complaining gets EPA to add a winter range test at 30°F; that number will still overestimate range for Fargo residents in the winter and underestimate the winter range for Phoenix residents.

Gene 2020 Honda Clarity
Sent from my Pixel 3 using Inside EVs mobile app
 
Landshark said:
What numbers are those dirty bastards keeping from the public? Aren’t the cars tested under a certain set of repeatable conditions? Aren’t those the numbers that are posted on the window sticker? Are they engaged is some sort of collusion with the auto manufacturers?

Are you suggesting that they know EV’s get s#itty range in cold temperatures and they’re not revealing this information? I’m not following what you may be alleging.
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You are correct, when the car actually goes on sale, the manufacturer must finally display the EPA ratings. I suggested nothing about cold temperatures. The EPA range numbers are for comparison purposes only and are as reliable as GOM range numbers. Your mileage may vary.
 
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