Norwegians get it

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Norway enjoys a very high non-carbon based grid such as hydro, but many states and provinces still have to rely on fossil fuels to power their grid. If you are open to green energy such as nuclear power, then every city should have a nuclear power facility and pink hydrogen production.

In my opinion, NA is behind for the reasons of the painfully slow democratic process as opposed to authoritarian regimes. Another part is industrial espionage which a particular authoritarian regime has been the primary beneficiary over the past two decades. Finally foreign interference runs rampant and is funded off books through proceeds of crime (i.e. domestic fentanyl trade and construction based washing activities).
 
Probably because you can get to anywhere in Norway in a few hours and get home to recharge easily... and I bet the govt there has mandated and supported building out public fast charging infrastructure, and maybe also have mandates that keep the rates reasonable. Whereas here in NA we take 1000s of miles road trips and there is nowhere to recharge in east bumcluck since there is little incentive to build out that charging infrastructure unless and until there are a critical mass of EVs to use it. Chicken or the egg... and the GOP led govt. will never help resolve this. Instead, they will say "leave it to the market" while at the same time subsidizing cheap gasoline.
 
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R P said:
What's wrong with people here in NA? I just don't get why so many still reject the idea of owning an EV.
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Not just North America (NA) but many other countries and people. Part of the problem was early EV technology needed better 'price-performance' and that takes time. For example:
  • 2019 - Tesla cross country required finding L2 charging at RV parks and other NEMA 14-50 sources.
  • 2025 - Double the number of SuperChargers and optional use of CCS-1 chargers. L2 charging happens at home, motels, or other places where hours long activity overlaps with free, L2 charging.
My hope is in the young who are not frozen with aging technology thinking. Curiously, there are reports that minority groups are also early EV adopters and that is evident in my unscientific observations at SuperChargers.

Bob Wilson
 
You shouldn't use past tense with this since it is still a big issue. You can buy a Mazda CX-5 or Honda CR-V for many thousands of $ less than, say, an Ioniq5, Tesla Model Y or Cadillac Lyric. Getting ~ 33 mpg, you could drive it for years on the cost savings vs. the EVs. This makes the EVs a tough proposition, especially for folks who will need to use $$ public fast chargers on road trips or because they live in apartment buildings.

bwilson4web said:
Part of the problem was early EV technology needed better 'price-performance' and that takes time.
Bob Wilson
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What works in a small country like Norway, with a semi-authoritarian government, will never work here. This is just silly. It's the same as the high speed trains in Japan why not here? Because LA to NY is 3000 miles not 200, and you have to cross the rockies and the appliachia's to get there. I hate when people make silly comparisons like this.

Forcing people to adopt an inferior (for them) product at the tip of a sword will never work. EV adoption will continue to grow as it makes sense because there are many advantages. Shoving it down their throat will create a backlash. Further, ICE vehicles are generally no less environmentally friendly, and their isn't anything that beats 100 gallons of diesel to move products across the country, on a truck or a train. At some point there will be viable alternatives, but these grandiose ideas always affect those least able to afford it. Slow down, we don't have to get there tomorrow.
 
I don't mean to suggest mandating EVs. But have to hand it to how the Norwegians did it. They sell their oil and use those profits and tax revenues to support their social services and conversion to EVs. Oil is going to be bought and used in the world, no matter who produces it. So why sacrifice your own economic resource wealth while letting other rogue countries sell their oil to support their war aggression activities.

Canada could learn from Norway. We have lots of oil and gas, but our govts have severely curtailed that production by killing pipelines and regulating to death our resource sectors (not just oil). Meanwhile our economy is in the tank, high taxes, high debt, and social services going downhill, esp healthcare, way worse than in the US. Not that I wish us to become the 51st state, but I can see the potential advantages, at least economically.
 
I'm witcha, but what happens when the gravy train runs out of gravy? Heavily socialized societies only work when the underlying culture supports it. In Germany the protesters all stay on the sidewalks. It's an old joke, but the culture there and thru Europe is radically less independent minded than on this side of the pond. Human nature, nature in general actually will learn to take advantage of the easiest path to survival. Instilling a work ethic can be difficult when you have no adversity to contend with. i fear the anglo-saxon dominance is fading. It remains to be seen what is next.

To your oil point, or more appropriately energy. I find it amusing there is such animus to Nuclear power when the production and use of fossil fuels is so much more destructive per unit of useful energy. Somehow the energy companies that pump oil have managed to demonize the invisible nuclear monster while playing down the constant trickle of deaths associated with the oil industry, and the environmental impact as well. The bottom line is the world runs on energy, and we are going to produce and use what we want to make it keep spinning. Solar is not going to cut it, and EV's are not going to save the environment, but I think they have some serious long term advantages that will increasingly materialize over time. Government mandates seldom work, and often have unintended consequences.

For those of us of slightly higher means it won't really matter.
 
Well, if you want to get rid of oil, or at least the bad use of it, have to go after the users of it, not the suppliers. EVs are good in that they mean less use of oil. And in a round about way, Norway is helping that despite being a large supplier of oil. I know, doesn't exactly sound logical, but that is what is happening with them.

I would like nuclear, too, if they can do it safely. But as I understand it, will take 10 years of more to build the plants. We are in a transition, and the least we can do is promote the use of EVs which means less use of oil. I think nat gas can play a transition role, too, being less polluting than coal for electricity production. And I like solar, not windmills. I think every roof top should have solar panels, wasted space otherwise. We have solar at our off grid cabin, and it works great. I like it. We charge the Solterra when we go there, too.

Bottom line, we need to get more people driving EVs instead of gas cars. Right now there is too much misunderstanding of EVs, and I blame the media for that. Norway has figured it out, and maybe there is something we can learn from them.
 
Keith Smith said:
What works in a small country like Norway, with a semi-authoritarian government, will never work here. This is just silly. It's the same as the high speed trains in Japan why not here? Because LA to NY is 3000 miles not 200, and you have to cross the rockies and the appliachia's to get there. I hate when people make silly comparisons like this.

Forcing people to adopt an inferior (for them) product at the tip of a sword will never work. EV adoption will continue to grow as it makes sense because there are many advantages. Shoving it down their throat will create a backlash. Further, ICE vehicles are generally no less environmentally friendly, and their isn't anything that beats 100 gallons of diesel to move products across the country, on a truck or a train. At some point there will be viable alternatives, but these grandiose ideas always affect those least able to afford it. Slow down, we don't have to get there tomorrow.
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It's not really a silly comparison Keith. it takes 35 to 40 hours of continuous driving from Lindesnes to Nordkapp, and it is mountainous. It's not semi-authoritarian, sitting among the top countries in global democracy and freedom indices, such as the Democracy Index and Freedom in the World report. Adjacent countries also have high new EV sales - Sweden and Denmark had 60% and 45% respectively last year. Maybe the fact that U.S. fuel prices are among the lowest in the developed world is slowing the move to EVs there?
 
It seems there are at least three problems in the US:
  1. Petrol companies want to keep the gasoline economy going as long as possible, sabotaging EVs.
  2. Auto makers chose to offer high-end EV models, chasing higher profit margins instead of building demand.
  3. Political interests (to help petrol industry) have pushed propaganda to undermine benefits of EVs.
 
Puppethead said:
It seems there are at least three problems in the US:
  1. Petrol companies want to keep the gasoline economy going as long as possible, sabotaging EVs.
  2. Auto makers chose to offer high-end EV models, chasing higher profit margins instead of building demand.
  3. Political interests (to help petrol industry) have pushed propaganda to undermine benefits of EVs.
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Wow. Buncha people who have money wanting to force a buncha people who don't to spend it on their pet project. It's better because I say so, it's cheaper because I say so, It really is better because you've been brainwashed by big oil and big auto. No, no, it's not really as expensive I know there is less money in the checkbook to feed your kids, but listen to me, it really *is* cheaper, your just being foolish and you don't understand, the big oil companies are getting rich off you so even though this electric car is costing you twice as much to purchase and drive you are giving all that extra money for my good cause.

Got it.

If it was significantly better even if marginally more expensive at this time, nobody would buy an ICE vehicle. It's not so they don't. When it is, everyone will. There is no blame here, the technology just needs to continue to improve. Plenty of industries over time have fallen by the wayside as technological improvements have made them obsolete. I hope it works out for Norway.
 
Keith Smith said:
If it was significantly better even if marginally more expensive at this time, nobody would buy an ICE vehicle. It's not so they don't. When it is, everyone will. There is no blame here, the technology just needs to continue to improve. Plenty of industries over time have fallen by the wayside as technological improvements have made them obsolete. I hope it works out for Norway.
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BC is not Norway, but there have been similarities (aside from geography). Our govts here in the past strongly supported and subsidized EV ownership and charging (BC Hydro is a govt agency). So in 2019, I bought my first BEV, the Kona, with $10K in govt rebates (at purchase, not tax credit). And we had a lot of free charging (incl L3) at that time. So the whole time I owned that car, I never had to pay for a charge, even at home. We had a free L2 just a 15 min walk from where we lived that I made good use of. When I sold it, got $5K more than I paid for it. That was during the post covid supply chain issues and there was a real shortage (with long waiting times) to buy a new EV. So I lucked out with that.

Then in 2023, bought 2 new BEVs. I got the Solterra for $9000 rebate (in wife's name to qualify), and my Ioniq 6 with a 5000 rebate. These cars were not cheap, and yes, at the time could have got similar ICE cars for less. But with my Kona BEV experience (driving qualities), I knew I never wanted another ICE car again, so was worth it to me. Since then BEVs have all come down further in price here, to make them even more attractive to buy.

Just last month at end of 2024, my son bought a Ford Lightning XLT. He has had a Tesla since 2017, and always wanted a truck. There was a lot of inventory and Ford dramatically decreased the price of these, along with additional dealer discounts. But they sold out very quickly (lower mainland), and was not able to nab one locally. So he searched online and found some available in northern BC, Prince George. And the discounts were even better up there (nearly $20K off of lowered Ford MSRP prices). So he made a deal on one, and flew up there to pick it up, and drive it home back to Vancouver. EVs up north are not very popular, so that is why there were still some available. Anyway, his price incl $5000 rebate for that truck was actually cheaper than the equivalent ICE XLT truck.

I might add that Ford sold a lot of Lightnings here in 2024, esp the last qtr. I can't believe how many I see when out driving. Tesla is still the most popular, but I think the Ford Lightning is #2 now, at least in my area. Price does make a huge difference.

My point here is that BEVs aren't always more expensive. And yes, timing and vehicle selection play a big part. But patience and shopping around can really pay off when buying a BEV. I believe that in 2025, BEVs will come down in price even further, so I expect to see more and more on the road. At this time, I believe BC and Quebec have the highest % BEV ownership in NA (more than CA). So govt support does indeed make a big diff.
 
Exactly, transition to BEVs really needs govt. support at this stage. But instead, we are going to see more headwinds and impediments to electrification here in the States and continued govt. support and subsidies for cheap petroleum products. So, from my perspective I will continue to drive my ICE vehicles as long as they have significant cost and convenience advantages. No sense for me to buy a BEV as a statement when the govt. is not going to make climate change a priority and incentivize the market to drive a consistent transition.

R P said:
At this time, I believe BC and Quebec have the highest % BEV ownership in NA (more than CA). So govt support does indeed make a big diff.
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