No surprise EVs a lot more profitable than ICE vehicles.

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Well, if you claim the figures quoted on this site are rigged, the onus is on you to prove it. The Mirai has been selling more than half to two-thirds of the list of forty odd plug-ins listed here for over a year now and sales are growing by 150% a year. Last month 409 FCEV were sold. 166 Mirais and 243 Claritys.

Clearly, not everyone thinks they suck.
 
101101 said:
What are you talking about? The Mirai and the FCV Clarity? These two cars suck and they cannot be selling in any numbers that were not rigged. You know highly subsidized sales to businesses that really should know better?
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Highly subsidised? Perhaps to the level of $20,000 a car like Teslas?

But if you believe the figures are false perhaps you might like to challenge whoever it is who wrote "Also of note: Toyota sold 166 Mirai in February. Honda sold 243 Clarity FCVs." in the InsideEVs blog. The figures are also available from other sites dealing with FCV cars and are no doubt perfectly accurate despite your disbelief.
 
I see that Hyundai are to sell the Nexo FCV in California too later this year. This claims a 500 mile range as well as a number of other bells and whistles. It is certainly getting interesting as more FCVs enter the market.

It is certainly looking as if the country could do with more hydrogen filling stations though. One almost begins to wonder whether someone is discouraging them from being built.
 
Martin Williams said:
Well, there are only two FCV cars on the market and they are both selling more than most plug-incars. Given the paucity of filling stations in your country, that is a remarkable achievement, which I think Musk is foolish to ignore.
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With the phrase "in your country", are you asserting that the two FCEVs on sale here in the USA are outselling "most plug-in cars" in the USA?

Reality check:

Toyota Mirai U.S. Sales
2015 72
2016 1034
2017 1838

In 2017, sales of 1838 units would qualify for the #20 spot on the InsideEVs Monthly Plug-in Sales Scorecard... if the Mirai was a plug-in, which it's not.

I guess you can claim your assertion "selling more than most plug-in cars" is technically true for the Mirai, since that #20 spot would put it just above halfway down on the list, and there are some models which are not on the list because sales are almost nonexistent.

But your claim fails any objective standard for Truth when it comes to the other fool cell car on sale here: The Honda Clarity FCEV. 80% of fool cell cars sold here in the U.S. are the Mirai.

In either case, calling such sales "a remarkable achievement" is a symptom of your level of fool cell fanboy dedication. A more objective observation would be that it's an embarrassing failure for Toyota, given how strongly they have been hyping fool cell cars as "the future of automobiles" and claiming there is no market for BEVs. Certainly U.S. sales of the Mirai have fallen far below what Toyota predicted.

I could be wrong, but my guess is that by far most of the sales of FCEVs are in Japan, where there is (or at least was) an astonishingly high level of government subsidy, reported to be nearly $20,000 in some cases.

* * * * *

From AutoBlog: "Weak hydrogen infrastructure delays Toyota Mirai sales"

From Auto Express UK: "Toyota Mirai hydrogen car scores surprise sales hit [in Japan]"
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Martin Williams said:
Highly subsidised? Perhaps to the level of $20,000 a car like Teslas?
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Hey, man, can I get some of what you're smokin'? There isn't any place in the world where any Tesla car is subsidized to the amount of $20,000, or anything close to that. But the Toyota Mirai is getting a subsidy quite close to that, or at least it was, in at least some areas in Japan!

From InsideEVs news: "Japanese Government To Offer $20,000 Subsidy On Fuel Cell Vehicle Purchases"

Martin Williams said:
But if you believe the figures are false perhaps you might like to challenge whoever it is who wrote "Also of note: Toyota sold 166 Mirai in February. Honda sold 243 Clarity FCVs."
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Favorite tactic of EV bashers, and especially Tesla bashers: Cite one month of sales figures as if that "proves" something. Automobile sales are highly seasonal, and often vary quite a bit from month to month. Always have, and probably always will.

Let's stick to annual sales figures. Sweemping claims assertions based on a single month's sales figures reminds one of that famous Mark Twain* quote: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." ;)

*Altho to be fair, Mr. Google says Mark Twain attributed that to British Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli
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If you look at the monthly Mirai sales over the past year, each month it inches up. It has gone from about halfway up the list to about two thirds of the way up over the year. I guess the arrival of the Clarity has dented its sales a bit but I expect it to continue to grow. Its annual growth rate monthly has been about 150% In other words, each month it sells two and a half times the number it sold in that month a year back. By contrast total BEV sales have grown by about 25 to 30%.

My reference to the $20,000 subsidy on Teslas was a sarcastic reference to the $20,000 per car loss incurred by the company last year.

I don't know why you get so upset about this anyway. If you want a battery car nobody is stopping you from buying one if you have the money. Why not just accept that not everyone wants one, and might find a hydrogen car or even an ICE matches their needs better? I don't understand why you seek to falsify the figures for FCVs either, and the venom expressed in your doing so is ludicrously OTT. Time to calm down, perhaps, and stop treating the matter like a deranged cheerleader.
 
Martin Williams said:
Highly subsidised? Perhaps to the level of $20,000 a car like Teslas?

But if you believe the figures are false perhaps you might like to challenge whoever it is who wrote "Also of note: Toyota sold 166 Mirai in February. Honda sold 243 Clarity FCVs." in the InsideEVs blog. The figures are also available from other sites dealing with FCV cars and are no doubt perfectly accurate despite your disbelief.
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But they are tiny irrelevant numbers. Investors are not subsidizing Tesla and what the government has been doing might as well be deemed national and global security- same cannot be said, if it could have been said in the last 50 years, for a petrol derivative like hydrogen. What makes hydrogen an absolute outright scam is not just the bad physics and economics but that its an attempt to trick the public into continuing to give money to the useless petrol parasites- that can't can't continue to happen.

No one wants hydrogen except the petrol fuel industry. No one who thinks wants it anymore. Think of Nikola Mortors- that is one incredibly dishonest firm with its PR on hydrogen.
 
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You may not call is 'subsidising' but Tesla is spending billions of dollars of investors money on producing cars at a thumping loss.

The point you seem to be making about petrol companies continues to evade me I'm afraid. I might point out that hydrogen can be very simply produced from tap water. The equipment is so simple that it is perfectly feasible to do it yourself at home, although to date I don't know of any manufacturer of a commercial system for doing so, and cut the 'petrol parasites' out completely. Perhaps that answers your point?
 
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