Honda Survey — Powerwall on four wheels?

[Kailani]

Shortly after buying my 2021 Clarity in February I received a survey from Honda gaging interest in what I want it in an EV car. One idea that received a lot of questions was at what price point would I be interested in joining with the electric utility for using the car as a source of back up electricity, a sort of Powerwall on four wheels. As part of a decentralized back up grid the utility conceivably would payout to thousands of dollars each year. I recall a year or two ago some mention of Clarity in Japan being sold with a back up type feature that could be used to connect with the home.

My sense is that Honda is looking at some sort of niche idea to entice the prospective buyer by realizing additional value and functionality from the battery packs that sit unused in the driveway or garage for probably half of every day. I would want some assurance that the battery would be warrantied longer than eight years on this Clarity. However, I like the idea of getting some return and one’s investment…



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[turtleturtle]

So far only the Leaf can do this, but several power utilities are testing out V2G. Supposedly the utility will pay your for your power storage if they use it.

 

[insightman]

The upcoming Kia EV6 and Hyundai Ioniq 5 will be able to deliver electric power to run a coffee-maker, charge another EV or even return power to the grid. Strangely, despite their many innovative features, neither of these crossovers has a rear-window wiper.

 

[Kendalf]

The upcoming Kia EV6 and Hyundai Ioniq 5 will be able to deliver electric power to run a coffee-maker, charge another EV or even return power to the grid. Strangely, despite their many innovative features, neither of these crossovers has a rear-window wiper.

The EV6 and Ioniq 5 feature Vehicle to Load, but not Vehicle to Grid. There's no capability that they have published that would enable the cars to put energy back into the power grid, so they would be a personal backup system. Personally, I'd be hesitant about tying my vehicle battery to the grid; I would be concerned about how many additional charge/discharge cycles this could potentially put on the battery.

 

[Theoburns]

Personally, I'd be hesitant about tying my vehicle battery to the grid; I would be concerned about how many additional charge/discharge cycles this could potentially put on the battery.

Depends on how much they pay. Yes you would need to factor in that it could shorten your battery life, as well as possibly hastening eventual range loss. But if it were to pay enough then over the long term as those payments (or credits) added up it could be worth it.

Sort of like someone using their car for things like Uber, definitely need to factor in the long term costs like diminished value due to added miles, tire wear, oil changes etc. to determine whether it is actually worthwhile.

If it doesn't pay that well (like Uber apparently) there still may be people who will be attracted to the short term cash flow, and not concern themselves as much with potential long term costs.

 

[insightman]

There's no capability that they have published that would enable the cars to put energy back into the power grid

Thanks for the correction. The early info I read must have been wrong:
> In short, Hyundai is confirming that the IONIQ 5 is going to have
> a bi-directional charger, enabling vehicle-to-grid capacity

 

[DucRider]

V2G and V2H are protocols (at least on the vehicle side) that will allow the EV battery to be plugged in via a DC connection to the equipment that is actually handling the V2G/H.
V2L uses the inverter in the vehicle to generate AC to power devices.

 

[Recoil45]

Seems like a really bad idea to put cycles on your EV battery to support something like this. No way I would do it.


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[DucRider]

Seems like a really bad idea to put cycles on your EV battery to support something like this. No way I would do it.


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Using a semi-daily additional 3-5 kWh on an EV with a large battery is a very different story than on the Clarity PHEV.

If you as an example had a BEV with 300+ miles of range and a 100 kWh+ battery, a typical commute of 40 miles doesn't cycle the battery much. Load shaving your weekday evening energy use would add the equivalent of <20 miles of driving. There seems to be the misconception that the utility would drain your battery every day. V2G keeps the owner in control of how much their battery is utilized. A handful of EVs load shaving doesn't do much, but when you scale that to thousands connected to the grid it makes a big difference. Having to fire (or keep running) a natural gas or coal plant to provide energy needed only a few hours a day is a big expense.

 

[turtleturtle]

The EV6 and Ioniq 5 feature Vehicle to Load, but not Vehicle to Grid. There's no capability that they have published that would enable the cars to put energy back into the power grid, so they would be a personal backup system. Personally, I'd be hesitant about tying my vehicle battery to the grid; I would be concerned about how many additional charge/discharge cycles this could potentially put on the battery.

That was a concern early on, but with battery improvements, now more possible.

But I’m with you. I plugged in my car so I could drive it. I don’t want to discharge to help the power company and then have shortened range.

 

[Theoburns]

But I’m with you. I plugged in my car so I could drive it. I don’t want to discharge to help the power company and then have shortened range.

"Helping the power company", by enabling them to not build new fossil fuel powerplants to handle peak demands is just one reason for a BEV owner to consider participating. Another is that it provides a place for utilities to store excess solar and wind energy that can be used later. However for those who are not as inclined to be moved by altruism, there would also be monetary compensation, which I assume would be in the form of credits to their electric bill.

Just as we have plenty of Clarity owners who only use gasoline in substantial amounts when they go on occasional out of town trips, most BEV owners only use a fraction of their total range on most days. Letting the power company borrow some of that power during peak loads, to be replaced during the night, would not even be noticed by these owners. If someone does have a trip planned, my understanding is that they can block the grid use of their battery anytime that they want to maintain a full charge.

Now if someone wants to be able to go out of town on a whim whenever they want to with a full charge, or if they feel that the payments aren't enough to compensate for the possibility of shortened battery life, then they simply don't sign up for the program and thus forgo the cash payments that they could otherwise be getting.

 

[Landshark]

"Helping the power company", by enabling them to not build new fossil fuel powerplants to handle peak demands is just one reason for a BEV owner to consider participating.

Isn’t that a bit of a straw man argument?

How many new fossil fuel power plants are under development or construction in the US? The grid is becoming less dependent on fossil fuels every day.

If people want to feed their vehicles energy into the grid and have that energy replaced later in the day/night, that’s just dandy. It is if no interest to me and it has nothing to do with altruism.

 

[Recoil45]

"Helping the power company", by enabling them to not build new fossil fuel powerplants to handle peak demands is just one reason for a BEV owner to consider participating. Another is that it provides a place for utilities to store excess solar and wind energy that can be used later.

We are going to need to build new power plants regardless. There is no way around it.

As far as storing solar and wind, we don't produce nearly enough now, and not likely in the next XX years to need to store it. Every bit produced will be consumed when produced.

If you looking at 50 years from now than maybe this makes sense. It would likely take that long to implement anyway. But we would probably be better off building dedicated battery depots.


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[Theoburns]

Isn’t that a bit of a straw man argument?

How many new fossil fuel power plants are under development or construction in the US? The grid is becoming less dependent on fossil fuels every day.

About 15% of new U.S. capacity in 2021 will be natural gas. Far lower than years past, and hopefully the number of new natural gas plants will continue to decline. But by how much is hard to say with certainty. Many states are moving towards banning new construction, however that will likely not occur in all states for several more years.

And I only said that this was one reason why someone might want to participate in V2G, there are others. In fact both of my posts emphasized that there is expected to be a financial incentive as well, and my main point was that those who are not interested in doing it for other reasons may very well be motivated by getting paid for it.

Predicting public behavior is nearly impossible, especially when there are different reasons why people might participate in V2G. Just as there are different reasons why people drive EV's, different reasons why people drive hybrids, and different reasons why people drive PHEV's.

We are going to need to build new power plants regardless. There is no way around it.

As far as storing solar and wind, we don't produce nearly enough now, and not likely in the next XX years to need to store it. Every bit produced will be consumed when produced.

If you looking at 50 years from now than maybe this makes sense. It would likely take that long to implement anyway. But we would probably be better off building dedicated battery depots.

The large number of government agencies, technology companies, and car manufacturers that are exploring this seem to have a different opinion about it. No way to be sure at this point how needed it will be, but there seems to be a growing opinion that it could be of potentially large benefit in our rapidly changing energy environment.

 

[Allantheprinter]

And I only said that this was one reason why someone might want to participate in V2G, there are others.

One potential driver for V2G is the ability to re-time your power usage. If you are on Time-of-use billing (as many power companies are pushing for), then the ability to draw power from a battery during peak times and then refill the battery during off-peak times can be a significant cost savings - more than enough to cover the loss of long-term life of the battery. This savings is part of the success of the powerwall - my thought is why not use the battery capacity of a BEV if it somewhat duplicates the functionality of a dedicated home battery.

 

[Kendalf]

Thanks for the correction. The early info I read must have been wrong:
> In short, Hyundai is confirming that the IONIQ 5 is going to have
> a bi-directional charger, enabling vehicle-to-grid capacity

It looks like the author Fred Lambert got too excited and misread the press release he quoted, which specifically states V2L:

The teaser aims to build anticipation and spark curiosity about IONIQ 5 by emphasizing three ‘extras’ to be offered by the all-new model. ‘Extra Power for Life’ calls attention to IONIQ 5’s vehicle-to-load (V2L) bi-directional charging capability.​

 

[Landshark]

However for those who are not as inclined to be moved by altruism, there would also be monetary compensation, which I assume would be in the form of credits to their electric bill.

Now if someone wants to be able to go out of town on a whim whenever they want to with a full charge, or if they feel that the payments aren't enough to compensate for the possibility of shortened battery life, then they simply don't sign up for the program and thus forgo the cash payments that they could otherwise be getting.

And I only said that this was one reason why someone might want to participate in V2G, there are others. In fact both of my posts emphasized that there is expected to be a financial incentive as well, and my main point was that those who are not interested in doing it for other reasons may very well be motivated by getting paid for it.

Yes, I read your words. They came across as pretentious.

You are correct that we all make decisions based on our individual needs and preferences. Perhaps we can leave it at that and forego the comments about another person’s altruism or financial savvy.

 

[Theoburns]

Yes, I read your words. They came across as pretentious.

You are correct that we all make decisions based on our individual needs and preferences. Perhaps we can leave it at that and forego the comments about another person’s altruism or financial savvy.

Just because I acknowledged that not all decisions made are purely altruistic is hardly a sign of pretentiousness. We give to one charity but not another even if it is similar. Is one act altruistic and the other selfish? No, we just try and live our lives, balancing helping others and thinking of the common good, with managing our own needs. But that wasn't even my point even if you imagine that it was. I was merely discussing what might motivate people to participate in V2G, and recognizing that those motives can be different for each individual.

 

[Landshark]

I was merely discussing what might motivate people to participate in V2G, and recognizing that those motives can be different for each individual.

Fair enough. And I was merely sharing how those words came off to me, even if that was not your intent.

 

[DucRider]

There are a number of aspects of V2G that will appeal to consumers. Having the capability to participate V2G is an overall plus in the design of a vehicle, whether an individual consumer chooses to utilize it or not.
There are even some PHEV owners on this forum that never charge, but the fact that the capability exists in the Clarity PHEV is most definitely on the plus side.