Help me with basic math please

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Tommm

Tommm

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I read this article https://www.businessinsider.com/ev-charging-cost-versus-gas-car-truck-suv-2023-7 and am very confused.

Electricity is about 16 cents a KWH by me, and I get about 4 miles per KWH. Based on my simple math that works out to about 4 cents a mile, $4 for 100 miles (16 cents/4 =4 cents X 100 = $4.00).

A gas Mini may get 40 miles to the gallon of premium which is currently about $4.50 a gallon. That works out to two and a half gallons to go 100 miles, which is $11.25 (4.50 + 4.50 + 2.25).

Where am I wrong since I know a magazine would never ever publish something with wrong information?
 
This is such a silly article. Combined with free charging sites and reselling the equivalent kWh via solar (instead of charging at home), my SE pays me $1 per 100 mile to drive it!
 
Two responses to the article in another forum I visit:

So I looked at it, its very much of rehash of 2021 study that was launched into the news cycle, then slowly retracted as both irrelevant, and an outlier.

They amortize into the cost the cost of installing a charger at home (almost fair, but no mention is given of how many miles the installation cost is amortized over), an assumption of "deadhead miles" - miles wasted going to and from each charger, and the kicker is an estimation of "opportunity cost", literally tagging the EV with a price tag for the worth of your time (at some unspecified rate) for all the assumed time going out of your way to charge. Very little of the 'cost' involved in their report is the actual cost of electicity. (And the fact that they start with the assumption that for gas cars, none of these things exist, skews the numbers). Then in this years report, they hammer that they are using "established methods" (referring to their 2021 report) to claim the report is fair. (Edit, and EV registration fees, which is sortof fair, but again have to be considered how many miles they're amortizing them over)

And all of the above are worth considering when you are considering an EV, they may or may not be personally valid concerns. But the result is clearly BS (and even the Detroit news had to walk back the reporting on the 2021 version)

And it's not encouraging that the first google search suggestion for "Anderson Economic Group" is "Bias". I didn't go deep enough to see if they were straight up funded by Big Oil, but with these sorts of reports, they usually are.
Click to expand...

And

it's fuzzy math for sure. and I wouldn't be shocked if this study was funded by fossil fuel or automotive interests.

But here is more detail, directly from the poor write up of the study.

Some Cars Cheaper to Fuel with Gas Than Electric in 2023

"Since 2021, Anderson Economic Group has calculated four categories of costs for fueling EVs and ICE vehicles using benchmarks that represent real-world U.S. driving conditions, including:

  1. The cost of underlying energy (gas, diesel, electric)
  2. State excise taxes charged for road maintenance
  3. The cost to operate a pump or charger
  4. The cost to drive to a fueling station (deadhead miles)
This was based in Michigan... so costs of energy and fees in Michigan."

#2 would be an EV fee through dmv: avg of $140 in MI
#4 seems incalculable; everyone has different number of deadhead miles, and if you charge at home, that number is zero.

gas in MI is $3.70ish AAA Gas Prices
electricity is .17/kwh... Historical Data of Michigan Electricity Cost (Facts & Rates)

so, based on 12k miles, per the study: cost of EV is $1514/yr for a mid priced car like model 3/y, id4, ioniq, mach e

at .17/kwh, assuming there isn't a cheaper off peak rate: at a conservative 3mi/kwh, that'd be $680.
They included the cost of a home charger, amortized... over how long, it doesn't say.. but let's say they pick the most expensive one you can get, because that would help the narrative: Say $1000, over what, 10 years? not life of the car.. life of the charger... let's say 5 years (we know it's closer to 10). 200/yr.

That still only puts us at $1020.

Of all the cars they listed, it's an average of 30mpg for an ICE, generously. at $3.70/gal, That puts the cost of fueling for 12k miles at $1480.

And, they don't add the cost of maintenance: oil changes, say one/10k miles... add another $50, generously. $1530.
I won't add manufacturer recommended 10-12k miles service, which would add another $500-$1k.

So, yeah, not sure how they closed those gaps in calculations.
Click to expand...
 
Thanks for helping me with the math. Here is my correction"

A gas Mini may get 32 miles to the gallon (let's round it to 33.33333) of premium which is currently about $4.50 a gallon. That works out to 3 gallons to go 100 miles, which is $13.50 (4.50 + 4.50 + 4.50).

So it will cost $13.50 to go 100 miles in in Revorg's first four Minis with a slightly lighter foot than he had, and it will cost me $4.00 to go 100 miles in my SE with my "fun foot." Cost of a charger? The 23 came with a 220 charger. The fact that I now have 2 chargers is irrelevant to this calculation.

Bottom line - since the article has to be accurate, the Nissan Leaf and other small EVs mentioned in the article must use a heck of a lot more electricity than our thrifty Mini. Plus they are not as much fun to drive. Don't tell the Leaf owners they are driving juice guzzlers!
 
41MPG as tested in 2022 Cooper S 6MT with 17" wheels and Pirelli PZero summer tires. This is the whole summer/winter tire vs all season debate again.

 
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I used to own a 2012 Leaf. The heater was an energy hog but otherwise it was fairly efficient. I’d get close to 4 miles/kWh in the summer. More like 1.5 in the winter. The Mini is more like 4 summer / 3 winter.


Sent from my iPhone using Inside EVs
 
My electric rate is $0.11 per kWh. Usable capacity is 28.9 kWh and there is a 15% loss of energy when charging with a level 1 charger so you need about 33.235 kWh to fully charge. $0.11 * 33.235 = $3.66 to fully charge for that 100+ miles of range.

A gallon of gas is more than $3.66 and the range is less than 35 miles.

So that oil industry article is very wrong. Their example of going 100 miles in a Bolt costing $12.55 is nutty. That would make the cost per kWh of $0.38! Meanwhile, the national average is $0.1118 so their cost estimate is over 3X higher than reality!
 
A couple data points.

I now pay $0.33 per kWH here in New England where they burn natural gas or LPG to make most of the electricity. The study may be using NE numbers :) I haven't checked charge station rates recently, but I believe their rates are much higher than home charging.

GasBuddy reports a gallon of mid level gas here is between $3.80 to $4.43 currently.

Last time I ran a comparison I'd need to be driving my 60mpg motorcycle for equivalent fuel prices. Acouple years ago, when electric rates were lower, it was an 80mpg equivalent more or less for fuel.

We don't currently have surcharges/tax for electric vehicle registrations.
 
I have time of use rates, so the cost of electricity depends on the time of day. “Super peak” was 31¢ last month. Peak was 18¢ and off peak (overnight) was 9¢. I’m sure you can guess when I charge my cars…


Sent from my iPhone using Inside EVs
 
GetOffYourGas said:
I used to own a 2012 Leaf. The heater was an energy hog but otherwise it was fairly efficient. I’d get close to 4 miles/kWh in the summer. More like 1.5 in the winter. The Mini is more like 4 summer / 3 winter.


Sent from my iPhone using Inside EVs
Click to expand...

My experience is just the opposite in the Mini. The AC really kills the range in the summer and I get much better range in the winter.
 
JonR said:
My experience is just the opposite in the Mini. The AC really kills the range in the summer and I get much better range in the winter.
Click to expand...

It doesn’t get that hot here (relative of course - 80 is too hot for me). It might hit 90 5x in a summer. Maybe. Not like the triple digit heat Texas has been seeing.

Winter is typically below freezing for 3-4 months. We usually get a couple of weeks worth of arctic blast, going well below zero.

(All temps in Fahrenheit, in case it was obvious)


Sent from my iPhone using Inside EVs
 
The report is using Michigan rates of $0.17/kWh for home charging and $0.43/kWh for DCFC. There's a 25% DCFC scenario and a 75% DCFC scenario.

Entry Level EVs do not exist because they are more expensive than a comparative ICE and the tax credits were not factored:
As stated at the beginning of this report, our purpose is to estimate the
real world costs of electric vehicles, and compare them apples-to-apples
with those for similar ICE vehicles.

Consistent with these principles, we do not include credits or subsidies
that are available only under certain conditions, only to certain purchas-
ers, or only temporarily. For example, the federal purchase tax credits are
only useful to those in certain income brackets, only for new vehicles,
and only during certain time periods​


anderson1.webp anderson2.webp
 
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xd366 said:
... essentially they are saying it's more expensive because they are including the cost of the charger into the equation. They are also saying that even if you have l2 charging at home, you're going to charge in a public charger once every 100 miles.
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For most buyers, the cost of the "charger" is a one-time expense. I've had my SE for two years now, and I've only charged at a public charger once.
 
I also don't understand that if people are buying cars with 240 or even 300 miles of range now, why would they need to charge at a public station every hundred miles?
 
revorg said:
For most buyers, the cost of the "charger" is a one-time expense. I've had my SE for two years now, and I've only charged at a public charger once.
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Costs of home chargers applies only to EVs used in home charging. We assume
an L1 charger costs $600 and L2 charger (with installation in 2021) costs
$1,820.40. These costs are amortized over 5 years.

It still costs $364.1/year (level 2 only) according to their assumptions. Works out to 28% of the $10.79/100 purposeful miles in the mid-priced EV category. Exclusively home charging at $0.17/kWh would bring down the cost to about $9.27/100 purposeful miles (12,000 annual miles).

SameGuy said:
I also don't understand that if people are buying cars with 240 or even 300 miles of range now, why would they need to charge at a public station every hundred miles?
Click to expand...
The same reason why you need to buy another L2 EVSE for $1,820.40 each time you buy another EV.
 
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