Are finally GM and Ford seeing the light, or the writing on the wall?

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coutinpe

coutinpe

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Just ran into this:
https://www.autoguide.com/auto/auto-news/gm-quits-1-million-ev-target-44612161

And then this:
https://www.autoguide.com/auto/auto...-duty-trucks-instead-of-electric-suv-44612209

The part that mostly caught my eye was: "...incorporating what the company describes as "future multi-energy technology. This could indicate a move toward hybridization, or fuel-agnostic technology, similar to efforts from Cummins..."
I have no idea who 'Cummins' is (someone of the knowledgeable folks here might enlighten me), or what does it means "fuel-agnostic", but hopefully that equates to PHEVs, and hence a return to what they should have never left, the likes of the Volt or the Energi. So I don't lose hope to finally see a PHEV actually superior to the Clarity some day...
 
I’m curious, why not take a few minutes and research Cummins rather than post that you have no idea who Cummins is?

They are known for making diesel engines that are used in Ram trucks, motorhomes, semi tractors, etc. They also use some of the same base engines to run on natural gas, for example. That’s fuel-agnostic. The natural gas engine has a lower carbon footprint than the diesel engine.

I didn’t read the articles, however, based on the quote, it sounds like it could be an “either/or” decision. Of course the quote is speculation on the meaning of the phrase “future multi-energy technology ”. So now, we’re both speculating on speculations. “Hybridization” could mean PHEV’s, “fuel-agnostic” does not. That said, if they combine the technologies, we could have a PHEV where the ICE runs on natural gas, for example.
 
Landshark said:
I’m curious, why not take a few minutes and research Cummins rather than post that you have no idea who Cummins is?

They are known for making diesel engines that are used in Ram trucks, motorhomes, semi tractors, etc. They also use some of the same base engines to run on natural gas, for example. That’s fuel-agnostic. The natural gas engine has a lower carbon footprint than the diesel engine.

I didn’t read the articles, however, based on the quote, it sounds like it could be an “either/or” decision. Of course the quote is speculation on the meaning of the phrase “future multi-energy technology ”. So now, we’re both speculating on speculations. “Hybridization” could mean PHEV’s, “fuel-agnostic” does not. That said, if they combine the technologies, we could have a PHEV where the ICE runs on natural gas, for example.
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Thank you for the information. Because I'm too old and lazy, only afterwards I thought I should have done that before posting, but it was already too late. Besides, it turned out to be a good opportunity to stimulate you to display your pedagogical abilities.
Yes, in fact all was speculations piling up on top of speculations, or otherwise the fine art of saying much and telling nothing, and no one seems to actually know how this is going to go, except that the BEV purism seems to be fading, they bet too much on it, and now they're kind of disoriented. A PHEV with a natural gas engine seems to be a great idea...
 
coutinpe said:
no one seems to actually know how this is going to go, except that the BEV purism seems to be fading, they bet too much on it, and now they're kind of disoriented.
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Yes, the Energy Department just ponied up another $1.7B to help auto manufacturers tool up to make EV’s, just when they’ve all decided to scale back their optimistic EV production goals.
 
Landshark said:
Yes, the Energy Department just ponied up another $1.7B to help auto manufacturers tool up to make EV’s, just when they’ve all decided to scale back their optimistic EV production goals.
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Yep! No wonder we have a national debt of zillions of gozilions of dollars, and counting.
 
In a practical sense, if you look at the nascent EV truck industry you see even the highest rated maybe having an out of the door price of 85-95K (or more). That's a chunk of money even given that trucks tend to cost more than cars. I think the cost matters and they have to be able to hit certain price point before the EV options will have significant buy-in. For me personally, I use a truck to tow a travel trailer (which is kind of a degenerative case for the EV trucks due to halving the range). Maybe the RAM charger 1500 with hybrid gas/electric and hundreds of miles of range will do it. But still, I'll bet that truck will cost $90K+ in 2025.
So I think they need two things-
- get the capability right (basically range, including for towing). That sounds like a PHEV to me. i.e. I don't always tow, so around town could be all electric.
- get the cost to make sense. That likely means get it to cost similar or same to a gas/diesel rig of similar ability.

Anyway, as it stands, the EV truck market is less capable for towing, and costs more.
 
Official pricing has yet to be released. Automotive publications such as Car & Driver have estimated prices from $60K-78K, for the Ramcharger, depending on trim level. As a point of reference, the Ram 2500 series, to which the Ramcharger is very similar, is priced from $60K-85K. If the estimates prove to be accurate, it will be priced in the same range as conventional trucks. There’s also a possibility that the truck will qualify for some or all of the Fed tax credit, as long as the price remains below $80K.

Potential benefits include lower operating (fuel) costs, particularly in areas where electric rates are low and gas prices are high, on site power for tools or travel trailers without having to bring a generator and gas can, no noise or exhaust fumes either, and the ability to function as a backup power source for a home.

Additionally, it appears that the truck will be able to travel at least 250-300 miles between fuel stops, while towing, which would be a stretch for something like my current ICE truck that is equipped with a 34 gallon fuel tank. You’d need to tow with a MDT or a truck that has an auxiliary fuel tank in order to travel greater distances between fuel stops and either of those vehicles would remain void of the previously mentioned benefits.

There’s no telling where the interventions will take the EV market. Both new and used EV prices are tanking, presumably due to lack of demand. Consumers and manufacturers are turning away from BEV’s and toward hybrids. It’s possible that we’ll see PHEV’s produced in greater numbers in the years ahead.
 
GM has announced a 1000hp ICE Corvette that will be available prior to the release of their proposed EV version.

They sell nearly 35,000 Corvette’s a year at an average transaction price of $106,000.
 
Landshark said:
GM has announced a 1000hp ICE Corvette that will be available prior to the release of their proposed EV version.

They sell nearly 35,000 Corvette’s a year at an average transaction price of $106,000.
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1,064 twin-turbocharged horsepower AND the return of the split window for the first time since 1963! "Available" is a relative term; it's doubtful the ZR1 will be readily available and not for anything near the MSRP.

upload_2024-7-27_15-48-2.webp


Here's what Car and Driver knows about the upcoming Corvette EV.

upload_2024-7-27_15-58-28.webp
 
Dan Albrich said:
In a practical sense, if you look at the nascent EV truck industry you see even the highest rated maybe having an out of the door price of 85-95K (or more). That's a chunk of money even given that trucks tend to cost more than cars. I think the cost matters and they have to be able to hit certain price point before the EV options will have significant buy-in. For me personally, I use a truck to tow a travel trailer (which is kind of a degenerative case for the EV trucks due to halving the range). Maybe the RAM charger 1500 with hybrid gas/electric and hundreds of miles of range will do it. But still, I'll bet that truck will cost $90K+ in 2025.
So I think they need two things-
- get the capability right (basically range, including for towing). That sounds like a PHEV to me. i.e. I don't always tow, so around town could be all electric.
- get the cost to make sense. That likely means get it to cost similar or same to a gas/diesel rig of similar ability.

Anyway, as it stands, the EV truck market is less capable for towing, and costs more.
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If they made a clarity truck I would buy one instantly. 50 miles of EV range to get rid of the "Its not practical to daily to and from work" aspects of a truck but I can still tow at least 5000lbs when needed. Thats the dream. Now if an auto maker could do that for under 70k is the issue...
 
Check out the Ramcharger. It should be available later this year or early next year. It has an EV range of 145 miles in addition to 27 gallons of gas for a total range of more than 600 miles. Towing capacity is up to 14,000lbs. Pricing is estimated to start at $60K.

rdav said:
If they made a clarity truck I would buy one instantly. 50 miles of EV range to get rid of the "Its not practical to daily to and from work" aspects of a truck but I can still tow at least 5000lbs when needed. Thats the dream. Now if an auto maker could do that for under 70k is the issue...
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Landshark said:
Check out the Ramcharger. It should be available later this year or early next year. It has an EV range of 145 miles in addition to 27 gallons of gas for a total range of more than 600 miles. Towing capacity is up to 14,000lbs. Pricing is estimated to start at $60K.
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That might be a good choice used after my clarity. I'll be picking it up soon but plan to keep it for a good while. (2-5 years) I honestly would love to "rebuild" a used battery pack as I've messed a bit with 18650s and other lithium cells in the past. I need to rebuild the battery for my cheapo Amazon ebike rn lol. Would be fun to order a bunch of the current most well suited 18650s to see how modern battery tech would improve the claritys performance.
 
Landshark said:
The phrase “Polishing a turd” comes to mind.
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Yes it does lol. I was thinking of doing something along the lines of what the torque test channel has done with their "souped up" battery builds. Only instead of building a battery for max amps out, I'd shoot for max capacity. However I haven't been able to find anyone truly tearing down the modules to their individual cells yet, so I have no clue what is in there.

At the end of the day its still a far fetched idea that I'll likely never do, like throwing a massive turbo on my 2.0T Accord. I'll likely just grab a refurbished battery and swap it out like everyone else in 5-10 years.
 
rdav said:
However I haven't been able to find anyone truly tearing down the modules to their individual cells yet, so I have no clue what is in there.
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Panasonic makes the cells. We generally discuss each 48v module as having 13, 3.7v cells. However, each “cell” is likely assembled by wiring 8 individual 3.7v cells rated at ~3400ma in parallel to achieve the rated capacity of 27.5Ah’s.

This is speculation, as I have not disassembled the battery or witnessed said procedure. If correct, each module would contain 104 individual cells and the Clarity PHEV has 14 such modules, for a total of 1456 cells.

I’ve seen 3.7v cells at 4000ma which would yield a theoretical capacity gain of 17.5%. But at what cost of time and money on a vehicle that is capable of running on gas when the battery is drained?

I chased the performance dragon in my younger years on a number of motorcycles and a few cars. With age comes wisdom, and now I just buy vehicles that meet my performance expectations and leave them alone.
 
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