Angry Bees

C

ClarityBill

Active Member
This is one of my favorite old topics, and a newcomer recently mentioned it again.

If he is willing to investigate, I would really be curious if we can finally figure this out.

My car had angry bees for the first 70,000 miles. Then I switched to premium fuel and it went away. I switched back to regular fuel, and still don't have angry bees. My engine still goes to high rpm under various conditions, but the noise is like any other Honda at high rpm.

I normally drive with an OBII, so I am very familiar with the rpm and performance of the engine. I have posted several graphs of operation.

I would be curious about the ignition timing when you are having an angry bees experience, or even during normal operation. My theory is the timing is biased incorrectly, and the noise is coming from the exhaust.

People that have not experienced angry bees can not imagine the noise...
 
Without the heat on, in HV mode, the car will not turn on the engine if you're sitting stopped. So, in the summer, you can drive somewhere in HV mode, park there with the car on to keep the A/C on for a half hour, and when you starting moving again it will max out RPM on the engine to try to recover the charge it lost while sitting. I think this is what people mean by angry bees.

I noticed this winter that with the heat on, in HV mode, the car WILL turn on the engine periodically, even while at a complete stop. I don't know if this has to do with having the heat on, since AFAIK the heating mechanism is purely electric, i.e. no assisted heat from running the engine. Firmware bug that it thinks it does?
 
petteyg359 said:
I think this is what people mean by angry bees.
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That is not what I mean by angry bees... If you have heard it, you will know. Engine noise in the cabin will exceed 85 decibels.

I regularly max out rpms (about 5400) on hills in New York. The angry bee engine noise made it impossible to have a conversation while the engine was at high rpm. Without angry bees, the engine rpm has no effect on conversation in the car.
 
petteyg359 said:
I don't know if this has to do with having the heat on, since AFAIK the heating mechanism is purely electric, i.e. no assisted heat from running the engine.
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It certainly can use the engine heat when the engine is running. The electric heat is heating a part of the engine coolant loop (probably isolated in EV mode since the cold engine would be a big heat sink). See https://www.insideevsforum.com/community/index.php?threads/heating-the-car.3563/#post-34778

Now, whether it's designed to start the engine in HV to heat the engine or just to reduce the drain on the battery I don't know. I do know that if my battery is empty and I'm in stop-and-go [in HV mode] stopped at a light with the engine running, turning off the heat will often stop the engine. I do wish it were smarter--the engine probably retains enough heat in stop-and-go to keep heating the coolant for some time. A heat pump would have been nice too--in the summer the range hit with AC is negligible.
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ClarityBill said:
That is not what I mean by angry bees... If you have heard it, you will know. Engine noise in the cabin will exceed 85 decibels.

I regularly max out rpms (about 5400) on hills in New York. The angry bee engine noise made it impossible to have a conversation while the engine was at high rpm. Without angry bees, the engine rpm has no effect on conversation in the car.
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What are the decibel levels and engine rpm’s that you are now measuring, compared to previous measurements, since the issue has resolved after the premium fuel switcheroo?

We’ve experienced engine rpm’s in the Clarity that I’d estimate to be in the 4000-5000+ range, based on past experience with 4 cylinder engines in other vehicles that were equipped with tachometers. I’ve never found those rpm’s to be as terrifying as what some owners describe. What can be easily misunderstood is the disconnect between engine rpm’s and acceleration.
 
I've never had "angry bees". I don't drive the car with less than 1/3 of the battery when in HV mode, so that's probably why. I don't regularly drive in areas where there are significant grades that will force the car to push the engine RPM up because the battery set point software makes it stop draining the battery, but I did experience that once, used the "reset" by going to EV mode, then back to HV mode, and the RPMs calmed back down. The grade wasn't long enough to need to do a second "reset".
 
JustAnotherPoorDriver said:
Now, whether it's designed to start the engine in HV to heat the engine or just to reduce the drain on the battery I don't know.
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Remember, in HV mode, the vehicle is designed to maintain a SOC set point. Using either climate control or the traction motor could trigger the ICE. The reason would be to charge the battery rather than warm the coolant.
 
Landshark said:
Remember, in HV mode, the vehicle is designed to maintain a SOC set point. Using either climate control or the traction motor could trigger the ICE. The reason would be to charge the battery rather than warm the coolant.
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Probably, but we might be wrong. When the heat is on and the engine isn't, the drain is large and it could trigger the engine. Alternatively, the engineers might have figured this out at design time and biased it to run the engine instead of the electric heat when in HV mode at low battery. The only way to know would be to look (via ODBC I guess) as to whether the drain precedes the engine starting, or it starts without the drain of the electric heater (bypassing it).
 
JustAnotherPoorDriver said:
When the heat is on and the engine isn't, the drain is large and it could trigger the engine.
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How large is the drain from climate control? Does it exceed the drain from the traction motor?

My money is on: “The car can’t distinguish the source of the load on the battery and it triggers the ICE as needed to maintain SOC”. I’ll stick with that until there is evidence to the contrary.
 
And to ClarityBill, my car is/was one with Angry bees. I tried to describe it to folks in these forums and it quickly became clear to me that many Clarity owners never experience this phenomenon and it may well be anomalous. Be that as it may, my car will do Angry bees on demand if I let the EV range go to 0 and then try to continue driving. This coincides with the HondaLink app show my EV % is below 10% (and dropping as I drive even in HV mode). Apparently HV mode is supposed to preserve charge state and my car cannot do that.

Anyway, simple fix: Use HV charge as much as you like (and I do frequently). I never get angry bee sounds from using HV charge, and if I can keep my EV range up, then the normal HV driving is smooth. I think this experience is different than 90% of Clarity owners, but if it happens to be your experience, I'd just do HV charge as much as needed.
 
Dan Albrich said:
And to ClarityBill, my car is/was one with Angry bees. I tried to describe it to folks in these forums and it quickly became clear to me that many Clarity owners never experience this phenomenon and it may well be anomalous. Be that as it may, my car will do Angry bees on demand if I let the EV range go to 0 and then try to continue driving. This coincides with the HondaLink app show my EV % is below 10% (and dropping as I drive even in HV mode). Apparently HV mode is supposed to preserve charge state and my car cannot do that.

Anyway, simple fix: Use HV charge as much as you like (and I do frequently). I never get angry bee sounds from using HV charge, and if I can keep my EV range up, then the normal HV driving is smooth. I think this experience is different than 90% of Clarity owners, but if it happens to be your experience, I'd just do HV charge as much as needed.
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That was also my experience. I used HV charge occasionally, but I generally got by with the HV reset on a regular basis.

Have you tried premium fuel to alleviate the angry bees? Just curious.
 
Thanks for that ask. I don't mind trying premium fuel but have not. At one point back early on, Kentucky Ken in these forums suggested I "reboot" my car by disconnecting the 12v battery. I did, and got scary warnings (normal) drove a few miles and they cleared (also normal). I briefly got my EV range reset as well (i.e. appears to lose the history that GOM EV range is based on). And for a time, I thought it eased the situation. But the real story for my Clarity is that it seems to try really hard (high RPM sound) to recover EV range when in HV mode, which it cannot do. For example, if I start 109 mi trip with 30 miles of estimated EV range, by the time I reach my destination, my EV range will go to 0. If I can charge at my destination that's fine, but if not, I use HV charge to get the about 50% charge back, and rinse/repeat as needed.

So sure, I'll buy a premium tank if you think this will help. My Angry bee problem started when the car was brand new straight from the dealer, so I don't know if it will make a huge difference. The problem has now spanned years. And interestingly, my car's charger failed. Got a new charger under warranty but that seems to rule out a bad charger (because I now have a brand new charger) and still experience angry bees if EV range = 0.
 
Dan Albrich said:
For example, if I start 109 mi trip with 30 miles of estimated EV range, by the time I reach my destination, my EV range will go to 0.
still experience angry bees if EV range = 0.
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I don't understand. Can't you start the 109 mi trip in HV mode and switch to EV mode when you get slightly less than 30 miles from the destination (assuming you can charge at the destination), thus avoiding the angry bees? That's essentially what I do. I never drive the car in HV mode with zero miles on the battery unless I slightly miscalculated the range to a charging destination and might drive 1/2 mile on HV mode to get to there. It's too easy to switch back and forth from HV to EV at the end of the trip to miscalculate much, if ever. The Volt is like this too. It is much more pleasurable to drive (and even safer, since the Volt can give you a "propulsion limited" message if you completely deplete the battery when in HV mode). It's a little like the ole HEE HAW joke with the Dr. "It hurts when I do this.... then don't do that."
 
Hi Robert, described that badly. I mean to say, I ALWAYS hit HV immediately when starting out. I don't intentionally run the EV range down. It goes down for me at a rate of 30 estimated EV miles per about 100 mi traveled. In short, there's nothing I can do to keep EV range when driving.

Of course, if I forget to hit HV (which I never do), then the EV range ticks down rapidly. I only use the EV range intentionally (not hitting HV) on my ~ 5mi commute to work and back where I'm sure to be able to charge again at home before hitting zero.
 
Hmm… mine doesn’t do that. I might lose a little EV range on relatively flat ground in HV, but nothing really noticeable. I easily drive 750 miles and still have significant EV range. Have you tried putting the car in HV charge mode as soon as EV range declines below half to see if that helps?
 
Dan Albrich said:
My Angry bee problem started when the car was brand new straight from the dealer,
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My angry bees also started when the car was brand new from the dealer, and very disappointing. I would love to know why some cars have it, and others don't.

I have not heard of anyone developing angry bees after not having them: Seems like it must be a programming defect at the factory. Like I said, my guess is an incorrect bias in the ignition timing. My proof is the angry bees went away when premium fuel caused the knock sensor to reset the timing. I tried to get them back by going back to regular fuel, but after 20,000 miles of premium fuel, I have not had angry bees in the next 90,000 miles (198,000 miles currently on odometer.) It would be interesting to check your timing with an OBDII reader while you have angry bees, before you 'fix' it.
 
Dan Albrich said:
It goes down for me at a rate of 30 estimated EV miles per about 100 mi traveled.
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I am not aware of anyone else having that issue... I guess you are really the lucky one! My rpm go up when I lose EV range in HV, and it recovers lost EV range.

How high are the rpm when you are losing EV range in HV?
Do you have constant angry bees?
Do you ever get into 'gear mode'?
 
Landshark said:
What are the decibel levels and engine rpm’s that you are now measuring, compared to previous measurements, since the issue has resolved after the premium fuel switcheroo?
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My decibel readings are now below 80 decibels. Previous decibel readings would go above 85 when engine was over 4000 rpm.

My rpm readings are a little higher now that I don't have angry bees. I am not as concerned about rpm since the noise is gone and I do not make adjustments to keep rpm down. The Clarity seems to max out a little over 5400 rpm. I hit that about once a week.

HV Charge does seem to mitigate the high rpm events. It actually keeps rpm more consistent, never allowing rpm to drop below synchronous speed.
 
Dan Albrich said:
Hi Robert, described that badly. I mean to say, I ALWAYS hit HV immediately when starting out. I don't intentionally run the EV range down. It goes down for me at a rate of 30 estimated EV miles per about 100 mi traveled. In short, there's nothing I can do to keep EV range when driving.

Of course, if I forget to hit HV (which I never do), then the EV range ticks down rapidly. I only use the EV range intentionally (not hitting HV) on my ~ 5mi commute to work and back where I'm sure to be able to charge again at home before hitting zero.
Click to expand...

Then the charging circuitry in your car is clearly defective, and it needs servicing. That's not expected behavior.
 
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