NHTSA : 2018 HONDA CLARITY=54 COMPLAINTS

That's because people are fighting straw man arguments, which is where someone argues against something that the other person never said. My assertion is that in each of the eighteen NHTSA reports that I quoted the drivers experienced a defect that caused massive or complete power loss. Others disagree and think that some of the drivers in the situations that I quoted probably experienced normal slight power loss that can occur in a high demand situation when you are out of EV charge, or simply that high engine revs confused them. They seem to think that if you don't agree with that then you must not believe that Clarity can at times act differently than a normal car. Or that you don't believe that someone new to the car could be confused by its behavior. When I never said that or anything like that, I am stating that the eighteen reports that I quoted don't fall into that category, each of them clearly indicates an actual problem.

Yet the arguments continue asserting that Clarity can act oddly at times, which I have never said it doesn't, and yet no one will tell me which of the eighteen reports that I quoted sounds to them like the user is simply misunderstanding how the car normally operates when you run out of EV range.

Can you please help me out and tell me which ones so that I can at least understand where other people are coming from.

 

The issue that exists is because the Clarity PHEV and Chevy Volt intended the gas engine to be a backup or assist feature. That's why they only make just over 100 HP, and after efficiency losses probably just under 100 HP. The Chrysler Pacifica PHEV has the same size engine as the non hybrid version, so their idea was it could take over the propulsion requirements if needed. It's less efficient, but covers more situations.

For the Clarity and Volt, there is a reason for the charge mode, since it would be necessary to have some charge before high demand situations. When the system splits the generator output between charging the battery and driving the wheels, it may be sending too little to the wheels and more to the battery. Unless the vehicle can better sense the driving conditions, it may make the incorrect balance, so it needs a way to see the vehicle load and assess the incline in the software decision making.

 

I think most of the 18 you quoted are reports of defective vehicles. But when I read through the full text of all of them yesterday, I recalled thinking at least one or two was a report of a normal Clarity with an ignorant, timid driver. More specifically, #11182859:

Using the phrases "transmission slipped" and "would not go into gear" to describe an issue with the Clarity's powertrain, to me, demonstrates some fundamental misunderstandings. On top of that, this complaint has less detail than the others, leaving the door open for embellishment.

I read this complaint, and I thought of my mom describing tech issues to me. She's always so certain that her issue's symptoms spell doom, and she has no idea how any of it works since she's an only-partially-self-aware Luddite.

In an alternate universe where my mom owned my (non-defective) Clarity, the first time she experienced how high the engine revs compared to how little acceleration you get when you don't have spare EV range, she'd have imposed a 10 MPH limit on herself because she'd be too spooked to accelerate any more. And she would have submitted a complaint just like this.

I think most, if not all (I'm not going to read through all of them again) of the other 17 complaints that you quoted were written by owners of defective Clarity PHEVs. This one? I think there's at least a 50/50 chance it was written by someone just like my mom, whose Clarity is perfectly up to spec.

 

There are more than one of the reports where they use terms which indicate a lack of understanding of the inner mechanisms of the powertrain, using terms like transmission, which Clarity does not have, at least in the traditional sense, or slipping out of gear, when the Clarity does not have drive gears in the traditional sense, other than a single gear that is used in direct drive mode. However not understanding the finer technical aspects of the powertrain does not make their story less believable, in fact it is a very descriptive way to convey what they experienced in a way that almost anyone can relate to. At least anyone who has ever experienced having a car slip out of gear.

The question is not did they use the correct technical terminology, the question is was their car in a condition where pressing the accelerator had no effect on speed and the car continued to slow even though they increased pressure on the accelerator. All of the eighteen accounts use wording indicating that this was the case, including the one that you cited. So the only question (in my opinion) is whether what they stated is actually true, regardless of whether they believe it is true.

The idea of MajorAward is that in some of the cases high revs like we sometimes experience caused them to back off the accelerator, or at least stop pressing it anymore. What I said in reply is that this is not consistent in my opinion with the details of the reports. But I now am considering a scenario where at least some of the complaints something similar was the case, which is if another apparent defect occurred which is sometimes referred to as "angry bees". Now I am hesitant to use that term because it is sometimes used in a general sense by people to mean when the car is revving higher than normal, as can happen normally at times when you have 0 EV range. But in normal operation that is certainly not loud enough to cause someone to panic and pull off the road, or back off the pedal so much that their speed on the freeway drops to 25 mph.

But the true angry bees phenomenon might in theory do that in some cases. People who have experienced it, which also seems rare (possibly because it has since been solved by one of the software updates), describe it using terms like the engine is "redlining" or "screaming" for no apparent reason, and it does this until they are able to pull of the road and shut the car off. Of course terms like "screaming" are subjective, and because of this those who reported it ran into a lot of skepticism, as many seemed to think they were exaggerating the normal behavior that everyone experiences on occasion (i.e. it was assumed that they just didn't understand how the car works). However the reports were in many cases detailed enough to overcome a lot of the skepticism and it was realized that some people apparently have experienced what would seem to be a defect, because it is hard to imagine that Honda would intentionally design a car where the engine almost literally screams at what sounds like redline levels during otherwise normal driving.

So while I still think that most if not all of the eighteen reports really were situations where pressing the accelerator pedal had no effect and the car would not accelerate and instead slowed, it could be that some of them actually experienced another defect which is the severe version of the angry bees phenomenon, and this caused them to panic and also to think that they were pressing the accelerator pedal when they weren't. However none of the eighteen accounts point to this, it is only conjecture that some of them were experiencing a different defect than the others which caused them to think they were pressing the accelerator pedal when they weren't. And in either case it had nothing to do with them not understanding how the car works in normal operation.

 

Sure, nor did I think it was. I was using their incorrect terminology as a foundation on which to build an argument that the author who used that incorrect terminology might have little enough understanding about how the Clarity PHEV's powertrain works (and, quite frankly, be enough of a simpleton) to get spooked by the high revs that are considered normal when high power is commanded and 0 EV range is available.

The complaint that I quoted makes no mention of a freeway, it says only "THE VEHICLE WOULD NOT ACCELERATE UP A HILL."

You've got a touching faith in humanity . People call GeekSquad for help because their computers aren't turned on. If someone like that drove a Clarity PHEV and heard the high revs that are expected under normal operation, what do you think their response would be?

Again, I'd like to reiterate that I don't think this conjecture can reasonably be applied to most (if not all) of the 17 other complaints you'd originally cited. They provide descriptions of abnormal behavior for the Clarity PHEV, full stop. So the only question is whether they're accurate (and I have no reason to believe they're not), as you mentioned.

But you asked for an example that might be a complaint stemming solely from a misunderstanding about the Clarity's powertrain, and I think this one just might be.

 

I wound up doing quite a bit of computer software and hardware technical support over the years, working over the phone with people who knew nothing about computers. What I found was that the technical knowledge of the person that I was talking to was not nearly as important as being able to simply describe what they were seeing without leaving anything out. As long as I could get a clear picture of what they were experiencing I could solve it or at least know where the problem likely was or if it matched known issues. Many of the people with some amount of technical knowledge were often the worst to deal with because they would invariably inject their own theories into their comments while leaving out simple basic facts about what they saw and experienced because they didn't think it was relevant, which often caused it to take longer to solve it because they were not actually doing a good job of describing what they were experiencing.

For sure someone can misremember or poorly describe or leave something important out, like the famous anecdotal story of someone who called tech support because their computer wasn't working, and only later mentioned that the power was out in the office. Whenever someone called in with a bizarre problem never heard of before I never dismissed it out of hand but I certainly had to consider that their report was not accurate or complete. But when the second call came in, even if not identical but very similar, that usually meant there was a real problem, and sure enough more calls would come in. Now it's true that what can happen after you have had a lot of reports and have confirmed that there is a problem, that someone can call in with something that on the surface based on their description sounds like the same thing, and you can mistakenly think it's the same problem, but it would turn out to be something different as you got into the details. Been there, done that so yes I understand that concept, but I still feel that these eighteen are consistent enough to most likely all be the same problem, or at least whatever problem they are having cannot be dismissed as normal behavior that they are just misunderstanding.

I agree the example you gave is more vague than the others, perhaps the weakest so to speak. Again the "gear" terminology doesn't bother me. "VEHICLE WOULD NOT ACCELERATE UP A HILL" by itself is not very descriptive, but tied together with "WOULD NOT GO INTO GEAR" is not something that in my opinion someone would say if they just had what they felt was inadequate power climbing a hill. Even if this one was an isolated report I would think it sounds like they may have had an actual issue, although sure you would wonder. But since other reports which do give more detail use a similar description about not being in gear, this is what led me to decide that it is likely the same problem which is why I included it in my selection. But thanks for pointing out which one you thought was somewhat weak and why. I agree it is not as detailed as the others leaving it more open for question.

 

I didnt read all the comments here but upon reading the reviews and me having my clarity for a few months now and about 4k miles. I can tell you THEY DO NOT KNOW HOW TO DRIVE IT. The dealer that sold me the car didnt even know how it works. The car doesnt know where you are going so it will always try to preserve battery life in HV mode (sometimes EV mode for me the ICE kicks on while cruising around below a certain point)

- HV charge mode, you obviously lose power. Turn that sh*t off climbing a hill. Also if you run your car down to nothing and try to drive up a giant hill, you obviously dont know the cars drive train.
- "gas mode" isnt an actual mode.
- if you have it in performance and hold down the (-) paddle (maybe stopped only.. happened to me once) it will rev and feel like it has a loss of power until you switch back to ev or hold the (+). (At first I thought these were paddle shifters and didnt know they did regenerative braking, but apparently they may do both or it's a glitch with computer maybe)

No problem with my clarity currently and it's the best car I ever owned. Any issues I ran into was me messing with it or not knowing.

 

The paddles control only the level of regenerative braking. In SPORT Mode, the paddle selection sticks, unlike in ECON Mode or NORMAL Mode. Those two modes revert to 1 invisible chevron of regen braking after a few seconds.

 

Maybe some don’t. But that’s overly dismissive. There very well may be scenarios where the car does, in fact, misbehave badly or even dangerously.

 

One comment regarding Angry Bees: The problem exists. It's absolutely real. It's absolutely deafening by most people's standards and way louder than any small engine you've ever heard. It's bad enough that any normal person riding in the car will ask if the car is OK to drive. Most in these forums have never experienced it, and some people presume those that have experienced it are deluded, inexperienced, reactionary, or too afraid to push the gas peddle when the engine sounds get loud. Not me, and yep, it used to be a normal occurrence for me.

One of my first drives with the Clarity was a relatively remote location (Crater Lake NP) which happened to have a level 2 charging station. My EV range had long since gone to zero (as I didn't know to press HV then on a long and especially mountainous trip). I'll charge at the rim I thought. Plugged in got the green light and went hiking. Came back to car some time later. Night fall was coming. The park doesn't have a bunch of services at night. It gets wicked cold there due to elevation at night- even in the summer. So I unplug, start Clarity. I get the system power problem (I did not have software patches 18-079 or 18-097 at that time). It says something on screen that the electric system has been locked out, and I mean Honda means it when you get this problem. The next thing I know, I'm driving a brand new car with no electric motor access, gas-only, screaming motor sounds for hours going home. I'm literally thinking 'crap, I'm ruining my new car'

After this experience and for many months afterwards:
- The car NEVER engaged the gear icon. And yes, I was looking for it, and driving in many flat road or even slight down hill situations at speeds it should of appeared. Nothing would ever cause it to appear.
- 100% of the time, if I got to 0 EV range, I heard angry bees, and I mean LOUD. I never experienced any form of power-loss. Folks on these forums (esp. KentuckyKen helped me). First they told me the car's small gas engine is designed to handle high RPMs so don't worry. This gave me the courage to ignore it and press on whenever needed. Literally turning up the stereo loud to get around if EV range fell. For some months, I also started either pressing HV early (if I might go past EV range), or for sure if EV range got down to 10. My first few months were fall then winter driving (got the car late September).

At some point Kentucky Ken suggested I reboot my car by removing the 12v battery lead to reset my car. Despite some scary warnings that vanish as you drive this seems to have completely fixed angry bees for my car. I literally cannot make the car do it now (and I've tried). I just 400 miles in the past few days, and some of it with 0 EV. Then car makes only normal car sounds. Yes I can hear the gas engine if I listen for it, and occasionally it runs to charge battery when I'm not pressing accelerator, but all of it relatively quiet, and certainly normal for anyone who has ever driven a small engine vehicle (and I have had many).

So long story short: Angry bees is absolutely real. Not all Clarity owners ever experience it. And it's way louder than you would likely believe until you actually experience it.

One last thing, the car is supposed to protect the last like 10% of battery. When my car was having this issue *angry bees* the Honda Link app would show 1 or 3% remaining (routinely). Since my reboot, it will go to say 7% but not lower. I absolutely think this is a problem that manifests when the car cannot sustain enough EV power to do hybrid mode properly, and in my case it appears to have been software. As in my car really did need the reboot procedure (and I'm glad to report happy now).

One last thing, as others (including Ken) have recommended, I run with a good EV charge and let the car select modes. I simply mean for long trips, I still start in HV mode (and have trained myself to do so). My trip that ended today was 400+ miles including mountains, and no issues at all. The car did 40MPG even though I was often going 70 or 80 mph.

-Dan

PS: I love this car. It's the best car I've ever owned. I'm not experiencing any problems now. Even when I had angry bees, I could avoid them by remembering to press HV.

 

In spite of a lot of hand-wringing by some about running out of EV range, all it does is turn our Clarities into a normal hybrid, as you experienced once you were able to clear your software glitch. The 0-10% SOC range is essentially the equivalent of the smaller battery in a regular hybrid. And like a regular hybrid it tries to stay in the upper part of that range. However there is still quite a bit of capacity even below 0% that is never used in order to prolong battery life.

Clarity seems to work just like my former Prius, in hybrid mode it uses the battery regularly and constantly replenishes it, and in the case of Clarity in normal driving doesn't normally get below 8% SOC (maybe I have seen 7% like you have I don't remember). Normally it quietly recharges back to 10% but when you are at 8% and are still needing power like climbing a hill or accelerating then the engine can be more noticeable as it tries to keep SOC from dropping any further, although nothing like the level you experienced when you had your defect (apparently a software glitch that required resetting). I haven't driven in mountains with 0 EV range yet and I am sure that is a bit noisier, but in normal driving with light hills 0 EV range works just fine.

Just like my Prius I can get below the normal 8% threshold by being parked for a period of time with the AC on, in that case I have seen it go as low as 1% before ICE comes on to charge the battery. In my Prius this also happened in long periods of stop and go driving, but so far in my Clarity whenever I have been in stop and go traffic I had EV range so I don't know yet if Clarity will also drop below 8% in stop and go traffic.

Like most people I try and keep some EV range available until nearing the end of the trip when I use up what is left prior to arriving home, but for me it's just for aesthetics mainly to make the drive a little more enjoyable by avoiding the occasional revving that any normal hybrid will make in some situations. But after having run with 0 EV range a number of times and experiencing mostly smooth quiet driving, I really don't worry about it anymore. On a long drive however with steeper hills (which I haven't done yet) I will probably maintain EV range just to help keep things a little quieter, than again I might experience like some others have that even mountain driving with 0 EV range isn't all that terrible.

Also just to note there is a difference between EV operating mode and EV propulsion mode (my terminology since the manual doesn't make the distinction). EV operating mode is the default mode that you are in when you don't press the HV mode button. In EV operating mode the system will deplete EV range until it reaches 0. The EV indicator will almost always be on since you will constantly be in EV propulsion mode, unless you do something like floor the pedal and kick on ICE. After you are in HV mode, either manually or automatically when you reach 0 EV range, the system is in hybrid mode but the EV indicator will still come on and off as the engine sometimes shuts down and the car goes into EV propulsion mode temporarily, typically at low speeds or while stopped, but even on the freeway in HV mode I sometimes see the EV indicator come on as the car runs for a minute or so in EV propulsion mode.

 

That is exactly right! I had the problem the very day I bought the car with ONE BAR of battery out of the dealer. Driving on the freeway back home was awful but I was aware I hadn't the real electric power. After I got home and was able to fully charge, never again, except a bit of angry bees on a recent trip to Vegas, trying to climb to 4000 feet at 80 mph...

 

I'm not sure if the display ever shows less than one bar so it's possible that your battery was depleted well below normal due to sitting on the dealer lot.

Also unless you were not able to maintain speed on the freeway and the car continued to slow down in spite of you increasing pressure on the accelerator pedal then you didn't have the same problem that people were reporting, they seemed to have experienced an actual problem with their car. What we are hoping but are not sure of yet is that the problem that some people were having was solved through later service updates.

 

"Also just to note there is a difference between EV operating mode and EV propulsion mode ..."

Just one update to this message. I really believe (maybe no one in these forums has seen what I have). When I had the system power problem. For multiple hours of driving after experiencing this issue, i never saw the EV indicator, not even briefly going down hill. Paddle/Regen was completely unavailable. All the way home from the mountain (well crater, but our crater is larger than some mountains), I could not recharge the battery at all. EV
"Bars" never increased above 2 despite going down a few thousand feet.

Left hand side, where you see battery gauge, I saw 2 bars. A orange engine icon. Top left I got "D" and ready. An orange i with a circle around it. Never "EV" -- and I mean not even once. Paddles completely unresponsive. Big orange box "SYSTEM POWER" in middle. "Plug-in Charging System Problem, Range Limited." And again on the right hand side, in orange "SYSTEM POWER"

The engine went immediately to high-rpm sound, and stayed there. I seriously worried I could get the car home without a tow truck. As night time temps below freezing I chose to drive it anyway. But yep that was the start of my angry bees issue. It stayed around for a few months (the angry bees). I took it to the dealer more than once for patches which did not help. KentuckyKen's reboot idea worked.

Also in terms of elevation profile, our "real" cascade mountain pass (willamette pass) is about 5100ft. The crater rim is over 6000ft high. The rim has very steep up and down all the way around it, and that's the road. Sort of a worst-case scenario for first trip with the car (without knowing much about modes). Here's a rim profile link (and yes one can bicycle the rim, I've done a small section of the 33 miles)-- https://www.mapmyride.com/us/shady-cove-or/crater-lake-rim-road-route-21657122

[This experience was a definite low-point owning the new Clarity. My wife actually asked if we could get our old Subaru back! ]

 

Picked up my new Clarity last weekend and drove 550km from GTA to Ottawa.

It did 85kms in full charge then switched to gas. Was going 120/130 without any « angry insects » issues or any speed issues. Averaged 3.4l/100km.

It was mostly flat drive, so I can’t really make general conclusions, but I really love it so far.

 

Your reply was spot-on. As a technoweenie I am very aware of how the car functions and yes, I did RTFM. If *I* am having these problems with my Clarity, Joe-Average driver is doomed if driving it.

I wrote this post 3 days after buying the car. I've had minor versions of this issue (losing all forward momentum when battery runs out) but typically run in HV mode when I anticipate running out of juice. (Here are all of my Clarity posts).

My biggest issue? Today was the FOURTH TIME the car would not start. It's sitting in the garage right now dead. I've engaged with Honda Customer Service since June while trying, desperately, to get some attention. The dealer tries to diagnose, but they don't have tools or cannot peek inside the ECM (control module). That requires factory-level diagnostics.

I'm engaging a law firm that specializes in California lemon law as I've had it with Honda's apparent "We do not care" attitude about these problems. This car is so undependable (and my wife won't drive it after all the problems) that I want my money back.

NOTE: I've found many more complaints online and have been collecting them. If service complaints I've experienced in my past jobs are any indication, for every one person that complains there are 10 others with the same problems that do not.

Probably why Consumer Reports dropped Honda quality down significantly.

 

I hope you end up with a car you like. There are no other regular retail vehicles sold today that are completely immune to serious problems in isolated samples. Sometimes it’s just bad luck. And I hope Honda makes it right. One thing I would note is that dealers can send diagnostic files for the cars control systems to American Honda for top level help. Don’t let a dealer act helpless with diagnostics. They just need to care enough to ask. I may have mentioned this before, but have you replaced the 12V battery and have all the software updates been applied to your car?

 

Holy crap...

Earlier today I was just thinking about how 'quiet' this forum has been lately when it comes to problem complaints.

I'm sorry you have had so much trouble. Your case is certainly a poster child demonstrating the precise reason that Lemon Laws exist. You are obviously very detail-oriented and should have no trouble documenting the issues that you have experienced and hopefully getting some kind of corrective action in the end (albeit with great pain and agony).

We have had our Clarity for a little over a year (~10K miles on the odometer) and have had zero trouble. This forum is not an impartial community, but I feel that most have been very happy with the vehicle. I know this is no consolation to you, and I wish you all the best going forward.

 

Thanks Sandroad. I've actually never had bad luck with a Honda (or Acura) cars that I've owned. This is the first one, unfortunately.

Yep. They replaced the 12V battery and all software updates have been run too. I also bought a highly rated OBD II diagnostic tool and have been keeping an eye on all of the error codes generated. Today's hiccup with not starting -- and the dash going crazy with codes and lights -- spawned the highest number of codes I've seen yet. That's why I'm so hot on having Honda diagnose the car vs. the dealer.

 

@Steve B. , I hate this for you too. Like @MrFixit said, I thought that the cars with reported problems on this site had either been resolved or traded. I am sure that by now you just want to bid this car "good riddance", and I agree. Good luck with resolution. You probably won't give the Clarity another shot once you are rid of this one, but hopefully you can find a good alternative that performs well for you.