New Take On Small Batteries

Discussion in 'MINI Cooper SE' started by revorg, Jan 19, 2023.

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  1. SameGuy

    SameGuy Well-Known Member Subscriber

    Except there really is no such thing as green (aka “blue”) hydrogen just yet. It’s really more gray hydrogen. All it does is shift the environmental load from Canada and the developing world to… Canada (and other petroleum-rich nations) and the developing world.
    jakesmini likes this.
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  3. Qisl

    Qisl Active Member

    Texas22Step likes this.
  4. teslarati97

    teslarati97 Well-Known Member

    Does anyone know roughly how much kWh is required for the electrolysis of water? I am kind of wondering because I did some napkin math on the Toyota Mirai and it was closer to the 1.9mi/kWh range for efficiency.
  5. SameGuy

    SameGuy Well-Known Member Subscriber

    Oh goody, I’ve been waiting a long time to read an oversimplification of the hydrogen economy in these forums! [rubs hands] ;)
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  6. teslarati97

    teslarati97 Well-Known Member

    Just think of the endless supply of ammonia smelling salts for hockey players! *insert stank face*
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  8. SameGuy

    SameGuy Well-Known Member Subscriber

    Oversimplified, the electrical equivalent net energy density of hydrogen is around 33 kWh/kg; using current electrolysis methods, around 50 kWh of electricity is required to produce 1 kg of hydrogen.

    ETA: note, I’m going back to numbers floated by Ballard in the early aughts. I’m sure efficiencies have gone up. Maybe. But still, unless you were producing that hydrogen in Quebec or Denmark, the source of energy for your electrical mix becomes a concern. Even before the negative efficiency.
  9. teslarati97

    teslarati97 Well-Known Member

    Interesting. So I watched 1001cars do a test on the Mirai 82.9mi/kg and at 50kWh/kg that would be like 1.658mi/kWh. Maybe the efficiency has gone up significantly...

    Anyways back to small batteries..yes to small batteries!
    Texas22Step and SameGuy like this.
  10. Puppethead

    Puppethead Well-Known Member

    That article on lithium gives off a whiff of propaganda from the petroleum industry. Any complaints about the environmental risks of gathering components for batteries should be measured against the world-wide pollution effects of extracting oil.

    Isn't lithium a salt, collectible via evaporation? There's a project to harvest lithium from the Salton Sea in California, which is already a polluted environment.

    The Salton Sea could produce the world’s greenest lithium, if new extraction technologies work
    AndysComputer likes this.
  11. SameGuy

    SameGuy Well-Known Member Subscriber

    I was just responding in a local building and urbanism forum to a post linking to a Sunday column in the francophone press claiming that “normal” road-tripping in an EV is not ready for prime time. I suppose in some parts of the rural west and midwest this is true, but the columnist was driving from Montreal to New York City with his girlfriend in his own electric car. He says he got to the border with 60% remaining. I usually get to the border with around 65% remaining on my car’s small battery, so I can only assume he was driving a similarly range-limited EV, if not the SE, then possibly an older Leaf or maybe a Golf-e. But then he supposedly realized they were about to “enter a no-man’s land” for charging. I pointed out to the forum that even in my car with its small battery, at most I’d have to make three 35-45 minute stops to top up along I-87 which is well equipped for charging, and noted that a more average EV could do the (nominally 6½ hour) trip with one stop for a quick meal. Claiming EVs are not ready — in this context — is simply not true. I really do hate soundbite journalism.
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  13. teslarati97

    teslarati97 Well-Known Member

    There's generally two pathways for spodumene either from brine evaporation or hard rock mining. Australian mining produces about 52% of the world supply, then it's about 24% Chile (brine based), and 14% China (mining). Right now the restriction is the annual production of lithium (plenty of reserves) and demand is outstripping supply.
  14. teslarati97

    teslarati97 Well-Known Member

    Well I'm sure monsieur Lagacé knows which side of his bread is compound buttered on. It would still take time to get to YUL, clear transborder, fly to JFK/LGA/EWR, and get transportation to the hotel.
  15. ghost

    ghost Active Member

    I doubt our battery tech will be the same by 2050. I'm always seeing article headlines about more efficient batteries made from non-lithium resources.

    Anyway, let's not use EVs and stay w fossil fuels bc those are clean!
  16. SameGuy

    SameGuy Well-Known Member Subscriber

    Also, Argentina and Chile, two of the three countries of the so-called “lithium triangle,” are not developing nations at all, but rather modern, investor-friendly countries. Together, they hold about a third of the world’s lithium reserves. Bolivia, the third member of the triumvirate, has reserves almost equal to the other two combined, but mostly politics stands in the way of Bolivia becoming a top lithium exporter.
  17. Qisl

    Qisl Active Member

    Later this year, I hope to take a trip from Dallas, TX to Nashville TN. A better route planner cannot provide me with a route. Even if I try setting waypoints N or S of me, I'm unable to get a route. (This is a little odd because roughly two months ago, there was one route, but it had two legs where I'd arrive at the charging station with 0% charge left. I guess since then someone has taken some charging stations offline.)

    So, I'd say that there are definitely some states where small battery EVs cannot be used for road tripping.
    polyphonic and SameGuy like this.
  18. SameGuy

    SameGuy Well-Known Member Subscriber

    Right, I’m not denying that that is a case that exists in certain parts of the continent between the left and right coasts. The columnist in this case was spreading FUD about a pretty normal 325 mile trip from Montreal to NYC down I-87, claiming it took a crazy amount of time and lots of anxiety to get through “no-man’s land.”

    GetOffYourGas likes this.
  19. Puppethead

    Puppethead Well-Known Member

    I've been wanting to take my SE from Minneapolis to Albuquerque. When I first got the SE in 2021 ABRP couldn't find a route. Now it can, which indicates the charging situation is improving. But Iowa is a vast wasteland for charging, and things look kind of dicey for the SE through eastern New Mexico. Which is not surprising, since there are areas so remote that there isn't even any cellular coverage of any kind.
  20. MrSnrub

    MrSnrub Well-Known Member

    I stopped reading FUD articles and reading people’s takes online. Especially from Legace and La Presse. I’d have done 5 mins of planning with charge stops and alternates. Actually a quick top up before US border.. I try to plan road trips as if I were flying a plane.

    My neighbour has a Taycan S and Bolt. He’s owned an EV since the Leaf 1.0 and we were talking about the FUD… it’s mainly down to propaganda (freedom convoy minds) and just simple lack of understanding. Would I want to drive the SE to Florida ? Prob not but I will take it to NYC and not even concerned.
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2023
  21. MrSnrub

    MrSnrub Well-Known Member

    That’s provided the LGA flight isn’t cancelled on AC as Jazz flights frequently are due to crew issues… NYC airports are gawd awful connected to anything. For us it works out okayish as my wife’s cousin lives in Astoria. But LGA to even Redhook is annoying
  22. AndysComputer

    AndysComputer Well-Known Member

    I’ve now done 16,000 miles worth of multi-day road trips from coast to coast in the south and this is what I have learnt:

    You need sufficient range to cover 2 hours of driving at 80mph. This is realistically 150 miles.
    This range needs to be delivered using no more than 70% of the battery allowing you to go down to 10% then charge up to 80%.
    The car needs to charge up to give you another 2 hour session in just 20 minutes.

    This means, when leaving home with 100%:

    Drive 2.5 hours (roughly 180 miles)
    Charging and restroom stop for 20 mins
    Drive 2 hours (roughly 140 miles)
    Charging and lunch stop for 45 mins
    Drive 2.5 hours
    Charging and restroom stop for 20 mins.
    Drive 2 hours
    Reach destination

    This equates to 9 hours of actual driving and around 650 miles covered.
    Lunch stop was same as a gas car
    Each of the 2 restroom stops were 5 mins longer than a gas car.
    But you saved at least 1 if not 2 gas stops at 5 mins each.
    So it’s a wash and no inconvenient.

    Taking out Long Range model 1 as an example the above matches up because given its efficiency we don’t need to charge to even 80% so those restroom stops work.
    If we had an Ionic 5 the faster charging would mean shorter restroom stops except it doesn’t as you have to put more percent in due to the lower efficiency, especially as those speeds rise to 80mph. My math from the range tests and charging curve videos on the YouTube channels associated with this site podcast tell me it’s a wash between both cars.

    The point being, yes, the original article is correct and pointing out what I have said about the Hummer since the beginning AND the Lighting AND the Rivian (the latter two to a lesser extent). They do not charge fast enough to make the above pattern work. They get range by having batteries 2 to 3 yikes the size of that in a long range car, but do not charge 3-3 times as fast. So you are waiting for the car at every stop. And that’s assuming you’re lucky enough to snag a working 350kw charger.
    Electric pickup trucks and similarly shaped SUVs are not good road trippers until they can do the above pattern.
    pictsidhe, chrunck and MichaelC like this.
  23. pictsidhe

    pictsidhe Active Member

    I've only done 7000 miles so far.
    Similar conclusions to Andy.
    I held out for a longer range SE for 2 years before getting impatient. The Chinese SE was first announced a month after I placed my order. Owing to the likely wait of two years and the good resale value of EVs, I carried on with my SE.
    It is mostly for commuting. I have made one round trip of just under 700 miles from NC to GA. There are quite a few more chargers than there were when I placed my order, making it easier to plan and execute.
    I'd love an SE with 60%+ more range and 60%+ faster charging. The range of the current SE currently means a limited choice of charging stops. Fast chargers are often over 50 miles apart, some routes 100miles. I am not comfortable getting to a charger and having inadequate range to reach a backup, even if it's level 2. That strategy paid off on my Atlanta trip. A fast charger had gone down between planning my trip and reaching the charger. I had a backup inside my remaining range, so it was merely an inconvenience rather than a disaster. Allowing for backups meant 3 stops each way instead of two.
    The need to frequently charge to a high % slows down charging stops.

    Lastly, some fast chargers are per minute, at a rate that is great for Taycans, but horrible for us.
    So, Mini, along with the bigger battery in the J01, please double the charging rate to 100kW!

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