How to Promote the Hydrogen Economy Hoax

Discussion in 'General' started by Pushmi-Pullyu, Jan 7, 2018.

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  1. Martin Williams

    Martin Williams Active Member

    Only an idiot would throw away the opportunity to use only the lowest pressure necessary to do the job. You can depend upon it that the first thing a hydrogen molecule passes through on leaving the tank is a pressure reducing valve. I would guess that the bulk of the plumbing is running at a bar or two. There is no reason to run at 700 bar, and every reason not to.

    Running at low pressure means that any leakage is greatly reduced and with it the cracking that worries you so much. I think you imagine valves and pipes turning to dust at the first whiff of hydrogen. In fact you can design for slow loss of structural integrity. The main effect of these cracks is that there will be a growing leakage of hydrogen, but even this is negligibly small.

    Another point is that at low pressure, plastic valves become feasible, eliminating the damage to metal entirely.

    You seem to be so obsessed with 'proving' it is all impossible that you have failed to notice that hydrogen fuelled cars are being sold and used, the gas is produced by the millions of tons world-wide and transported around and is widely used in fork-lift trucks and other vehicles.

    Clearly, the problems you claim are insuperable, have all been overcome. Events in the real world are revealing this thread to be the nonsense it always was.
     
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  3. I don't think anyone is claiming fuel cell vehicles are impossible, just not the best solution to replace internal combustion.
     
  4. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber

    Fuel cells have their place just not in ordinary cars due to cost and its handmaiden, availability. Hydrogen fuel cells are great in spacecraft, submarines, and other closed environments.

    Bob Wilson
     
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  5. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    That seems quite likely. Since the membrane in a polymer exchange membrane fuel cell (PEMFC) is something like plastic wrap, clearly it can't withstand the pressure of H2 at 10,000 PSI / 700 bar. I'm not sure, but I think that's the type of fuel cell being used in the fuel cell stacks in all production FCEVs (that is, fool cell cars).

    I think you have a perfect score, Martin, in every single comment you post that starts with "I would guess..." being completely and totally wrong. That's one of several indications to me that you're just playing dumb as a form of trolling on the subjects of EVs, fool cell cars, and the "hydrogen economy" hoax, because otherwise one would think that you would accidentally be correct at least occasionally!

    But back to the facts of the case: The H2 has to be under some pressure to force it thru the fuel cell's membrane, so clearly has to have more than 1 bar of pressure.

    Maybe, maybe not. I've speculated myself that reducing the pressure may reduce the cracking, but that's just a guess on our part. Physics (and chemistry) sometimes work in ways which are quite counterintuitive! If embrittlement (and therefore cracking) of the plumbing is a problem, as stated in articles on the subject, then perhaps reducing the pressure doesn't reduce cracking as much as we would think. Perhaps embrittlement is caused by long-term exposure to pure H2, whether it's under pressure or not.

     
  6. Martin Williams

    Martin Williams Active Member

    Actually, fuel cells operate happily at one or two bar. You really don't 'force ' the hydrogen through the membrane - it is very happy to find its own way through to meet the oxygen!

    Incidentally, I think you have taken the idea of 'membrane' rather too literally and imagined something like a child's balloon. In fact, the 'membrane ' is in all probability embedded in a porous ceramic matrix which provided a great deal of mechanical strength!

    You seem as ignorant as a sparrow about fuel cells, which probably explains why you have posted such a foolish thread and spouted such ill-informed nonsense about them.

    Why not do some proper research and then you will be in a position to mount a much better attack on FCVs and stop presenting yourself like a clown?
     
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  8. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    Trolls appear to be completely oblivious to unintentional irony. :rolleyes:

     
  9. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    Quoting from From "How Fuel Cells Work" at the How Stuff Works website:

    Figure 2 shows the pressurized hydrogen gas (H2) entering the fuel cell on the anode side. This gas is forced through the catalyst by the pressure.​


    I would be kinda hard for the H2 to flow at a useful rate of speed through a membrane that is backed up by something like ceramic, porous or otherwise. But no doubt you can ignore that physical limitation as easily as you ignore the thermodynamic limits to multiple energy-losing steps in the well-to-wheel supply chain for a fool cell car powered by compressed hydrogen.

    From photos posted online, a fuel cell's polymer exchange membrane resembles nothing so much as a car radiator, with many thin fins in an array.

    And yet, as "ignorant" as I am, I obviously know much more about the subject under discussion (and just about all subjects discussed here) than you do!

    How embarrassing for you.
    :p ;) :cool:
     
  10. Martin Williams

    Martin Williams Active Member

    "How stuff works" is wrong.

    If you look at the figures, hydrogen doesn't really have to flow very fast to get high power out of the cell. It is about three times as energy dense as petrol and as you, yourself have observed many times, it is very good at getting through small spaces. It would breeze through the supporting ceramic matrix as if it were not there!

    You can get some idea of the construction from this:

    http://www.esru.strath.ac.uk/EandE/Web_sites/99-00/bio_fuel_cells/groupproject/library/constructionefficiency/text.htm

    I draw your attention to the fact that the diagram of a cell is courtesy of CERAMIC Fuel Cells Ltd. All practical fuel cells are made this way. You really cannot deduce much of it's internal construction from the resemblance of a stack to a car radiator. Both need to dump excess heat, but there the resemblance ends.

    You need to dig a lot deeper than footling descriptions for the simple-minded in 'How stuff works' to get any real idea of what's involved.
     
  11. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber

    It looks like California is finally bringing balance to their zero emissions plans:
    https://www.sfchronicle.com/business/article/Energy-revolution-California-approves-massive-12957685.php

    California’s electric utility companies will spend nearly $768 million on charging infrastructure for electric cars, trucks and buses, under a series of proposals approved Thursday by state regulators.

    The programs, viewed together, are believed to be the largest state-level effort yet by the utility industry to encourage the adoption of electric vehicles. . . . 369,300 pure electrics and plug-in hybrids now registered in the state.
    . . .
    The programs unanimously approved Thursday by the California Public Utilities Commission focus on creating the infrastructure to support charging stations particularly for electric trucks and buses, in contrast to previous expenditures, which have focused more on cars.

    I checked a proposal and there was no mention of hydrogen:
    http://docs.cpuc.ca.gov/PublishedDocs/Published/G000/M215/K380/215380424.PDF

    The point is electrification for BEVs is much more affordable than hydrogen fuel stations and already 3x more efficient per mile. Seeing California at least run the head-to-head experiment bodes well for BEV and plug-in hybrid cars.

    Bob Wilson
     
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  13. Martin Williams

    Martin Williams Active Member

    Well, I suppose you'll have to wait for consumer choice to stimulate demand for hydrogen filling stations.

    Hardly surprising that an electricity supplier is not going to promote hydrogen. It looks, too, as if the concentration on buses and trucks means that they have decided cars are already well provided for.
     
  14. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    And the Earth is flat, and energy efficiency doesn't matter, and the Laws of Thermodynamics can be circumvented, and advances in batteries have stalled, and hydrogen is the fuel of the future. That is, according to you and your self-delusions!

    Well, I agree on one thing: Hydrogen is the fuel of the future... and always will be! :p :D :cool:

    One doesn't have to do much reading on fuel cells, either at Wikipedia or How Stuff Works or other easily accessible sources of information, to realize there are several different types of fuel cells. Talking about a type that is not used in fool cell cars is rather off-topic. Of course, dragging a discussion off-topic is one of your many disingenuous debate tactics.

    Since you're clearly trying to change the subject to avoid admitting you're wrong, it's time for to declare victory in this debate -- just like very nearly all debates with you -- and retire.

     
  15. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    It's inevitable that the "hydrogen economy" boondoggle is going to end sooner or later, as the advantages of BEVs become more clear over time. Even the most scientifically illiterate person can understand that the supply chain for H2 fuel, and building infrastructure to dispense it, makes it far too expensive to ever compete with either gasoline or batteries charged with electricity directly from the grid, even if they can't understand the physics and economics that create that enormous disadvantage.

    I find it quite disappointing that California has not yet ended public funding of the "hydrogen economy" hoax, but it's good to see at least a step in the right direction!

     
  16. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber

    Per Toyota for May:
    • 4760 - Prius sedans
    • 4268 - RAV4
    • 2924 - Prius Prime
    • 1359 - Lexus RX
    • 818 - Prius C
    • 762 - Lexus NX
    • 170 - Prius V
    • 102 - Mirai
    Bob Wilson
     
  17. TeslaInvestors

    TeslaInvestors Active Member

    "California’s electric utility companies will spend nearly $768 million on charging infrastructure for electric cars, trucks and buses, under a series of proposals approved Thursday by state regulators."

    What a huge waste of funds. Could have spared a fraction of this to spread the H2 network further north to Seattle and east to Vegas.
    Instead, they keep pushing something that people don't really want.
     
  18. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    And to demonstrate that you honestly do believe nobody wants electric cars, you invested in Tesla Inc.

    Oh, wait... :rolleyes:

     
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  19. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber

    There are two aspects of owning a vehicle, supporting daily commuting as well as the rare, long distance weekend break. So I made two maps showing each for the Toyota Mirai:

    This chart is for weekend and cross country trips:
    [​IMG]
    In this chart, I drew a circle showing 50% of the Mirai range around a hydrogen fuel station. Driving straight out, the Mirai would be down to 50%. Turn around and the car can return to the hydrogen fuel station. Go outside a red circle and a tow truck will be needed. The intersection of two circles identifies routes that can connect two stations for longer travel.

    A car also needs to support work. So I cut the range 1/7th for a full week of commuting with one fill-up:
    [​IMG]
    Within these circles an owner can do a weekly fill-up and commute to and from work. Side trips for groceries and other chores are part of the weekend driving. Some of the isolated hydrogen fuel stations can support local economic activity but the areas outside of these circles are lost.

    Bob Wilson
     
  20. TeslaInvestors

    TeslaInvestors Active Member

    Interesting. I think if you fill the big circles in first one with semi-transparent color, it will show all the areas that someone can go.
    This shows that most parts of California is already covered for travel with fuel cell cars.

    But I'm not sure what the second picture is showing. People commuting longer distances can fill up more than once a week.
     
  21. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber

    It has to do with what I remember when working. Before we got our first Prius, I was used to 8-10 days between fill-ups. But the first, vivid memory with the Prius was going +2 weeks between fill-ups. My visits to gas stations with the time and money spent there went down by nearly 1/2.

    My thinking is someone with a Mirai with my attitude towards 'overhead' tasks will not put up with more than a weekly fueling visit. Having water exhaust is not enough compensation for this chore and expense.

    Now if you combine a hydrogen fuel station with a casino with a craps table, I could be persuaded.

    Bob Wilson
     
  22. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    I cannot get out of my head the mental image of a FCEV owner driving in circles around and around one of the few H2 fueling stations, as if the car is on the end of an invisible string or cable, until he has to come in for another tankful. That way he can be sure he won't run past the range where he can fill up again. ;)

    Seeing your circles on the map reminded me of that image.

     
  23. altfuelcarguy

    altfuelcarguy Member

    Traveling recently in China, I noticed they have a magnificent network of DC fast charge stations along their freeways. See attached photos. I never once saw any of them in use. Nor, in fact did I see more than a couple of EVs (Teslas). I inquired about why the DC fast charge stations were not used, and the response was an eye-opener: the vast majority of people in China live in high-rise apartment complexes which do not have garages or charging stations. Parking is in outdoor lots surrounding the buildings. Thus, car-owning Chinese continue to drive gasoline cars, and fill them up at gas stations.

    Which leads one to the obvious conclusion that switching from gasoline to hydrogen is the only practicable way to move to zero-emissions vehicles in those circumstances. There would be no need to retrofit huge numbers of charging stations at apartment complexes. Instead, add hydrogen pumps to existing gas stations.

    That, to me, is the reason that hydrogen has a better chance of widespread adoption than batteries. Switching from gasoline to hydrogen involves no change in behavior or habits for the car owner. They will simply drive their now-zero-emissions car to the gas station and pull up to the hydrogen pump, refilling in about the same amount of time as always, and getting about the same range from that refueling as they currently do.

    The debate about which is better, batteries or fuel cells, has gone on ad nauseum in many forums, not just here. Perhaps the debate should be not about which is better, but rather which has the better chance of widespread adoption. Both batteries and fuel cells result in zero-emissions vehicles. The emissions from producing the electricity or the hydrogen are centralized, and thus far easier to control than individual tailpipes on millions of cars. We need to get to a zero-emissions transportation solution as soon as possible. Ultimately, we may find both technologies being part of the solution. There's room for both. DSC01098.JPG DSC01099.JPG
     

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