Do you think they are correct?

Discussion in 'General' started by Joao C. Correa, Dec 8, 2017.

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  1. Joao C. Correa

    Joao C. Correa New Member

    Formula E has decided to postpone the battle of the batteries... They will continue to use only one manufacturer's battery [now from McLaren]. I think the fight against global warming is more important than any allegation of costs for small teams or lack of competition on the circuits, because one is much better (like Mercedes in F1) than others... C'mon we have to hurry!!! But it's not only that... They never imagined how exciting would be a race that ends when there is no more battery power, and the winner being the one that went further...
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  3. Feed The Trees

    Feed The Trees Active Member

    Formula e is not about battling global warming, it's about making money.
  4. Domenick

    Domenick Administrator Staff Member

    While fighting climate change may (or may not) be the series top goal, if it can demonstrate to a global audience the viability of electric vehicles, then I'm totally cool with them making money.

    But regarding the batteries all coming from the same supplier, I can appreciate the decision, despite my own earlier misgivings. I spoke with someone who would have entered a team from the start, but didn't because it was designed as a driver's competition more than a supplier's -- they had hoped build their own car with their own drivetrain/battery.

    However, that approach would very likely to have led to a situation where one or two teams had a much bigger edge on everyone else, and so not very exciting from a racing standpoint.

    I think the way to find a balance with this is to have a competition among potential suppliers for the prize of being the official supplier for that year. At least for some components like the battery packs. That way, the technology would be pushed forward faster, but teams would still have equal vehicles
    Joao C. Correa likes this.
  5. Joao C. Correa

    Joao C. Correa New Member

    If A.C.O. open an electric category for the Le Mans 24H race, all battery effort and manufactures big names will be attracted for the endurance race where is a correct kind of race (not sprint races, changing cars in the middle of the race...) to develop batteries with more range and less recharge time... The fact is that the big names, people with real capacity to develop batteries, want a place to test, compare and, know at what level are the competitors; it is more important than the marketing gains that come with eventual sports victories... I'm talking about money all the time... We saw this in WEC LMP1, all hybrid prototype manufactures abandoned the category, perhaps because they were no longer interested in developing hybrids that only make sense because of the delay in the charge of the current batteries for EVs.

  6. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    I'm not quite sure what the question posed in the title of this thread is asking: "Do you think they are correct?" Do we think who is correct about what? More specifically, Joao C. Correa, is it that you think EV racing should be "opened up" to allow cars to use any type of battery pack they want? Or is it that you think McLaren is the wrong choice of manufacturer for a standardized battery pack?

    Personally I want to see EV racing move toward battery swapping. Gasmobile race cars can refill during the race; why can't EV race cars? Recharging would take much too long with current battery tech; that would need something like capacitors rather than batteries powering the cars. Having spent far too many hours and years on TheEEStory forum, I have almost no hope that capacitors will replace batteries for powering BEVs. Certainly current commercially available capacitors are not suitable; that, at least, is an indisputable fact.

    Battery swapping during pit stops could be just as exciting as watching an Indy 500 pit crew trying to change tires in record time. It would unleash the full power of EV racers, which would no longer be held back in speed and acceleration by the need to ensure they didn't exhaust the battery before the race was over!

    And as far as making EV racing into a "relay race", switching cars in the middle...


    ...I'm very glad that Formula E is no longer doing that! IMHO, a "race" in which the car that starts isn't the car that finishes, isn't a real motorcar race. It's just pretending to be one.
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2017
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  8. Feed The Trees

    Feed The Trees Active Member

    Le Mans style would be a double edged sword. If they show the cars can race for 24 hours straight with fast pit stops then it's a huge success. If the batteries start giving up the ghost or cars need to be towed for lack of battery power (which can totally happen with gas) then it won't help the cause. Failures happen in gas cars all the time, but the difference is we have seen trillions of gas power car hours so it's not bothersome, and people are looking to see the fail points of EV.
  9. Domenick

    Domenick Administrator Staff Member

    In case you weren't aware of this, Panoz and Green4U Technologies are putting together an electric Garage 56 entry. Will be interesting to see how quick and effective their battery-swapping approach works (or doesn't).

    I think Formula E should have gone with a battery-swapping model, but they were afraid that the pack might separate from the vehicle and be dangerous in a crash, so they kept it integrated within the chassis.
  10. Feed The Trees

    Feed The Trees Active Member

    Battery swaps will never be a viable solution for every day life so I'm glad they didn't. A big point of racing is to develop viable products and test.
  11. Joao C. Correa

    Joao C. Correa New Member

    And why not an all Electric 24H Le Mans held in the second semester? ... and free of too much rules... recharges or swapping at team choice... with categories for Teslas, Nissans, BMWs... and others... It will be a flavor of the first rallies and races of the beginning of the past century... A.C.O. want money too... I believe :)
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  13. Domenick

    Domenick Administrator Staff Member

    I would argue car swapping also isn't a viable solution for every day life either. :)

    Of course, I'd prefer to see flash charging, but it isn't a viable technology yet. Ok, well, it is, but the battery chemistry that can handle it isn't energy dense enough to be used in a racing vehicle. Swapping would be a compromise to allow all the other systems to be tested and allow for a racing spectacle.
  14. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    "Never" is a long time.

    Well said, sir!

    I agree that it's unlikely that battery swapping is ever going to be economically viable for mainstream passenger cars. But that constitutes only a fraction of all the vehicles people use every day.

    What about long-distance freight trucking? There might be an economic case there. What about electric propulsion airplanes? What about heavy construction vehicles, used at work sites far removed from the grid?

    What about front-line combat vehicles? If I was a BEV tank commander, I wouldn't want to wait around for even a 10-minute charge! "Please, mister enemy tank commander, may we have a 15 minute time-out before you start shooting again, so I can recharge my tank?" Somehow I don't think that's going to work very well! (Well actually, that's more of an argument for PHEV combat vehicles rather than BEV combat vehicles with battery swapping.)

    There may be several applications where battery swapping may prove more practical than the alternative solutions.
  15. Domenick

    Domenick Administrator Staff Member

    By the time batteries are small enough and have the standardized packaging that would allow them to be used in various makes and models, flash charging (5-minute charging) should be in place and a lot easier to deal with than the logistics required for swapping infrastructure.

    Yeah, there could be some outlying use cases, where swapping might make sense (endurance racing, military, etc) but for the common Joe/Josephine, it probably won't come into play.
  16. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    I don't see that as happening, at least not on any widespread basis. Legacy auto makers compete on the basis of their ICEngines; I think future PEV makers will compete on the basis of their battery packs. I just don't see standardization ever getting much foothold, any more than there is standardization of ICEngines in gasmobiles.

    Just my opinion, of course.
    Domenick likes this.
  17. Feed The Trees

    Feed The Trees Active Member

    Because if you can charge a car fast enough then an industrial application where can train handlers should also be viable. As I understand they already mega fast charge city busses way past what a consumer car can do.

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