Are hydrogen tanks superior to batteries?

Discussion in 'General' started by Martin Williams, Apr 3, 2018.

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  1. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    Be "fair" to someone who only posts here to attack EVs in general, and Tesla Inc. in specific?

    Being fair to everyone here would mean banning him from the forum, permanently. I'm all in favor of being fair!
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  3. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    In the context of your usual very pronounced anti-EV bias, that came across as sarcasm. If you didn't mean it that way... well, I don't think I'm the one to blame for confusion. We're not going to instantly forget your history of EV bashing just because you decided to write one or two posts which appear to actually be reasonable. That's not to say you can't rehabilitate the very poor reputation you've made for yourself, but even if you do turn over a new leaf (no pun intended), don't expect us to quickly forget the history of your comments.

    Recycling of H2 tanks isn't the issue with fool cell cars. The issue is that fool cell cars come with what amounts to an expiration date; a "DO NOT REFILL AFTER ____" label. That's because long-term exposure to compressed H2 embrittles metals. It's not just the tank; it's all the pipes and fittings inside the car which carry the compressed H2, which weaken over time. Fixing that would mean ripping out all the fittings and replacing all of them. I very seriously doubt that could be done in a cost-effective manner. It would most likely be cheaper just to buy a new car.

    Recycling of EV battery packs is almost nonexistent. From what I've read, this is because the value of the materials isn't great enough to make recycling worthwhile, except possibly on a large scale. Tesla has said they are going to recycle battery packs at Gigafactory One, but they haven't started that, and they haven't been talking about it much so I suppose that's still years off.

    Nissan has announced a battery recycling program in Japan, but I don't know how much recycling they are actually going to do.

    From Green Car Reports: "Nissan, Sumitomo open electric-car battery recycling plant in Japan"

    I don't regard such a claim from a serial EV basher, a claim that he actually owns and drives an electric car, to be credible. You certainly are not the only EV/Tesla basher posting to InsideEVs whose claims to own and drive an EV directly contradict frequent comments indicating that nobody should buy one; comments strongly suggesting that anybody who would buy one is either clueless or a fool. Such claims from serial EV bashers appear to be just an excuse to make their EV bashing more personal.
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    Last edited: Apr 19, 2018
  4. Martin Williams

    Martin Williams Active Member

    I suspect the design of the hydrogen system is such as to minimise amount under high pressure. A pressure reducing valve at the outlet to the tank would mean that the rest of the pipework would be under low pressure. Similarly, a one-way valve at the point where hydrogen enters the tank would mean that high pressure from the filler would occur only during refuelling.

    The tanks are pressure tested at double or treble the normal operating pressure, and I would not be surprised to find that periodic high pressure retesting might be required to ensure they remain safe.

    But nobody is going to consider piping 70MPa around the vehicle unless they have to. Much of the pipework could well be plastic, or at least plastic lined.

    The tanks are not metal anyway, and don't suffer from embrittlement. We'll have to wait and see to be entirely sure but I think embrittlement is a problem that has been solved by careful design.
     
  5. Martin Williams

    Martin Williams Active Member

    He claims to have owned a battery car anyway, so perhaps he's talking from experience. I am not sure that you have, Pushmi. You never refer to your own experience of one. Not that you have to in order to post of course - I don't myself - but its odd for such an enthusiast if you don't.
     
  6. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    Yes, it is odd that I'm such a strong EV enthusiast yet don't own one. Unfortunately I've had to give up driving, so I don't own any car at all. I've been hoping to see gasmobiles become obsolete ever since I first read about electric cars in Popular Science, when I was perhaps 12 years old. And dagnabit, I'm still waiting! :mad:
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  8. Martin Williams

    Martin Williams Active Member

    I fear it will be a much longer wait Pushmi. They look to be with us for a considerable time yet!

    I'm not much of a fan of cars of any sort, personally. My favourite form of travel is front seat, upstairs, in a double decker bus! Sadly, I can afford neither a double decker bus nor a full time driver and have to drive a car!
     
  9. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    Well, I don't expect gasmobiles to entirely disappear. Even after the EV revolution is complete, I expect there will still be a niche market for gasmobiles, perhaps 5-10% of the worldwide market, and probably a greater percentage in regions where the electrical grid isn't reliable.

    I'll be happy to see plug-in (or wirelessly charged) EVs capture, let's say, 25% of the new automobile market. By that time almost everyone -- everyone except the few diehards like you, Martin -- will realize that gasmobiles are rapidly on their way to obsolescence.
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  10. DonDeeHippy

    DonDeeHippy Member

    It seams to me that the objections of hydrogen here r just engineering.
    The average person can buy a second hand $2000 car that has 300 miles of range , until electric cars can be competitive it doesn't matter if hydrogen or a battery ev is better.
    It will be solved with engineering and innovation like all things.
    I just think its silly to think battery power ev is god and hydrogen ev is for suckers when the guy with the $2000 car think both of u r mad.
     
  11. TeslaInvestors

    TeslaInvestors Active Member

    From that POV, the H2 cars are on a faster track. I'm driving an Acura quality fuel cell sedan loaded with many new tech features for $361/month net, that includes fuel and has a range of 366 EPA miles. Similar gas sedans are leasing for same or higher monthly payments excluding fuel.
    I can't say the same thing about any 300+ mile electric car. Tesla promised a car for $35k. Now we see it is actually $55k. That too, with a lot of compromises.
    So, the H2 cars are more competitive for the consumers. Plain and simple. 366 mile range with 60 miles a minute recharge and $360/month lease deal. Let's see any electric car beat that with a century of history behind it.
     
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  13. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber

    Fortunately there are car review companies that test hydrogen fueled cars:
    Both the UK and USA reviews report current hydrogen costs of $15-16/kg or £10/kg. It may not be readily available but the cost per kg seems similar on both sides of the Atlantic.

    So then I tried to find credible, current comparison reports of BEV and FCV. It turns out there were a bunch in 2000-2012 but they are sadly out of date. They often used assumptions about the cost of hydrogen, $2/kg, that were dodgy back then. Sill, here is a more current, February 2016 report:
    At least this version uses a claim slightly less fictitious, "For FCVs, the GGE conversion factor is approximately 1 kg, with a national median fuel price of $5.00/kg" But even this price is off by a factor of ~3 from what actual Mirai owners face when not getting a 'free', 3 year, $15,000 hydrogen fuel card. This would be ~1,000 kg or ~70,000 miles. Edmunds discusses this here:
    Yet the Trump administration directing the Department of Energy still make this claim:
    In 2017, they claim "<$4/gge and <$7/gge" by 2020. At least on pp. 25, "$13-15/gge" shows current prices which matches what Edmunds and Autocar report. So the cost of hydrogen remains the problem.

    FCV advocates claim some 'future' cost of hydrogen will be low enough to compete with current ICE cars. At least now they acknowledge that BEV miles are cheaper by at least 2x even using mythical hydrogen costs at the pump.

    I put my money where my mouth is by owning two, plug-in hybrids. I know the EV and gas cost per mile, their care, driving and how to refuel both. So it is past time for FCV advocates to do the same ... buy (or lease) one and perform the experiment. We know this can be done in the USA and the UK.

    Bob Wilson
     
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  14. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    On the contrary, the fact that the makers of fool cell cars have to sweeten the deal for consumers by offering (for the Mirai, at least) three years of fuel, just so they can get people to buy even the rather limited number of fool cell cars they make, really underscores the fact that hydrogen-powered cars are very far from being competitive with either gasmobiles or plug-in EVs!

    But hey, if you want to buy a fool cell car, then by all means do so. I'd compare that to buying an Edsel back in the day, but that would be unfair to anyone who ever bought an Edsel. For all that model's faults, at least you could fuel them up at the same places as any other gasmobile. And unlike fool cell cars, the Edsel didn't require a special fuel which had an unsubsidized per-mile cost about three times what gasoline costs in the U.S.!

    There is a reason why fool cell cars are selling in even lower numbers than auto makers expected. Despite all the propaganda promoting fool cell cars from Toyota and other auto makers, most car buyers are not fools!
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  15. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber

    I started looking at LiFePO4, 18650, cells at: http://www.batteryspace.com/LiFePO4-Cylindrical-Single-Cells.aspx
    • significant operating temperature range limitations - if going for air cooled, there would be challenges.
    • max discharge amps, ~30A >> max charge amps, ~1.5A - the discharge is fine but a battery management system needs to clamp regeneration or do some sort of fancy pack, power switching. It may make more sense to use a smaller, max amp discharge battery, ~5A, and then use parallel modules to handle the regeneration and high-speed charging.
    I have an electric bike that needs a better battery than the 48V, sealed lead acid pack. It has a ~400W motor, 400W / 48V = 9A. Minimum two cell, parallel modules. But I want faster charging, so six cells in parallel would give, 9A charging for the module, 6*1.5A. It is charging rate that specifies the number of parallel cells.

    Given the goal is 48V, I will need in series, 15 modules. This gives a total of 90 cells in 15s x 6p configuration. This will run about $338 plus shipping. Not great but not bad either. At 120VAC, it should draw about 4A during the initial charging.

    It is charging rate that defines the battery pack architecture. The nature of the cells means there is excess power to drive the electric bike. A total of 135 Whr / ~75 W ~= 2 hours at 25 mph, about a 50 mile range minus the low and high voltage margin. Cell weight in the pack, 8.1 lbs, probably 10-12 lbs including case and charger.

    Bob Wilson
     
  16. Martin Williams

    Martin Williams Active Member

    Indeed not! They buy ICE cars!

    The whole argument about batteries versus hydrogen is like two bald men arguing over a comb. Like it or not, the public prefers petrol to either of them.

    It's probably too early to predict how hydrogen will turn out, but I think the writing is clearly on the wall for plug-ins. They have been around for a number of years, are generously subsidised and despite a wide choice of models now are still as rare as hens teeth. Clearly, the public has not taken to them.

    Whether the same fate awaits hydrogen, is something we'll have to wait and see, but the fact that drivers who switch from gasoline will not have to change their driving habits at all may help. There seem to be no insuperable technical barriers to hydrogen motoring, and deny it all you like, economies of scale and technical improvements are bound to bring the cost of hydrogen way down.
     
  17. Martin Williams

    Martin Williams Active Member

    An electric bike makes better sense than an electric car, being used for shorter journeys, and you can swap batteries so that one can be charged whilst you use the other meaning availability is better.
     
  18. NeilBlanchard

    NeilBlanchard Active Member

    Martin, do you drive a FCEV? If so, which one? What is the longest trip you have driven?
     
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  19. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    Aha. "Excoriator" aka "NewTec" over on the (now defunct) TheEEStory forum repeatedly used that exact phrase, "two bald men arguing over a comb", and he also was a diehard and frequently posting EV basher. As I recall, he also lived in England and owned a narrowboat... just like you, Martin!

    Interesting to see some of the Usual Suspects on that forum become Usual Suspects here. I'm sure you remember me, Martin; I was "Lensman" on that forum. I see now that, following the "dieselgate" debacle, you're no longer pushing "clean diesel", and you've switched to supporting the even more impossible fool cell cars.

    Anyway, I though that you might actually be persuadable on the merits of facts, logic, and science. Given your (apparent) history on TheEEStory forum, I now realize that was a mistake on my part. :(
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  20. Martin Williams

    Martin Williams Active Member

    I don't drive an FCEV. I have a petrol and a diesel car.
     
  21. Martin Williams

    Martin Williams Active Member

    Well, you were wrong about EEstory's ridiculous idea and you are just as wrong about battery cars.
     
  22. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    ROTFL!!
    :) :p :cool:

    Trying for revisionist history there, Excoriator? I certainly was not wrong to remain skeptical about EEStor's claims. There were a few Usual Suspects on TheEEStory forum, at the end after third-party test results were finally published, who said sorrowfully "You were right, Lensman." How about you, Excoriator? Not so much, huh?

    How about those "clean diesel" cars, hmmm?
    :p :p :p

    Contrariwise, no need for any skepticism at all about using compressed hydrogen fuel for passenger cars. The absurd impracticality and profligately wasteful energy inefficiency are proven beyond any reasonable doubt; proven both theoretically and experimentally.

    It's now clear to me that your purpose here is to be a contrarian, and I don't mean that in the sense of stock market contrarian. In other words, your purpose is just to be a slightly more subtle form of troll. You're definitely not interested in honest discussion of the ideas and issues.
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  23. Martin Williams

    Martin Williams Active Member

    I thought you were as enthusiastic about the daft capacitor as you are now about battery cars. That is what you claimed here some time back.
     
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