"Angry Bees"

Discussion in 'Clarity' started by Mesa, Dec 25, 2018.

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  1. Atkinson

    Atkinson Active Member

    I am seeing varying behavior on the highway with engine mode disengaging for no apparent reason and RPM's climbing to 3000 or more with an almost full battery.
    Got the car in June and engine mode was very consistent until around the time cold weather hit.
    Full disclosure: I have been driving faster now that MPG is no longer stellar, so maybe I am using more battery in HV mode.
    Would be helpful to know what the program is using for inputs and the scenarios that cause unexpected clutch unlock and high RPM's when battery level is adequate and power demands are minimal (as stated above, opportunity to restore lost charge?).
    Just thought that probably sums up most questions people have about the Clarity.
     
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  3. David Towle

    David Towle Well-Known Member

    Several times now, when I've been on the highway and the car won't go into gear drive, I switch it to EV for 10 seconds, then back to HV, and within 10 seconds its in gear drive mode.
     
  4. ozy

    ozy Active Member

    Well, this is annoying. I went thru at least 10 reviews about this car before I bought it and no reviewer ever mentioned this stuff. I thought that I was getting a car that I could drive electrically for the first 48 miles and then like a normal car for the next 20 miles of my commute (68 miles daily). I now realize that i will have to deal with angry bees and selecting modes etc. I just wanted a car for my commute and wasn’t planning on getting a phd in phev! After reading many posts my take home message is to put the car in eco mode for one mile to the freeway; then switch to HV for 33 miles until the office. On the way back, I get on the freeway in HV mode again but can switch back to eco when the remaining electric miles equals the miles required to reach home. Does that make sense? Just trying to keep it simple.
     
  5. Clarity_Newbie

    Clarity_Newbie Active Member

    Ozy

    Does the Clarity you drive exhibit the "angry bees"? This had been reported by multiple owners but not every Clarity exhibits this behavior...at least not yet.

    I drive my Clarity like a normal car for the most part. The only thing I really do different is put it in HV mode when I get down to ~10 EV range mainly because I try not to totally go to zero EV routinely.

    Hope this helps.

    Good luck
     
  6. insightman

    insightman Well-Known Member Subscriber

    That's the procedure many people follow. The basic philosophy is to keep at least 20 miles of EV range available so the Clarity doesn't have to depend only on its modest 103-hp engine to move the 4,059-lb car.

    I should note that ECON Mode is one of the three main user-selectable modes (along with NORMAL and SPORT Modes), and HV Mode is a special mode that works with any of those three modes.

    In HV mode, the Clarity PHEV employs mysterious logic to maximize efficiency using the battery and engine power both separately and together. You will sometimes even see the EV icon light up on the dash when the engine shuts off while traveling in HV Mode. One of the tricks HV mode has at its disposal is the ability to use the engine to drive the wheels directly when the computer deems that to be the most efficient option. When the engine is mechanically connected to the wheels, you'll see a tiny (very tiny) gear icon centered between the wheels on the Energy Flow screen and the engine speed will suddenly be proportional to the road speed instead of running at whatever speed it chooses.
     
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  8. aldaris1234

    aldaris1234 New Member

    I got my car in August. I hadn't really taken it on any significant trips until the past two weeks (Round trip Indianapolis/Green Bay and Indianapolis/Minnesota). I noticed the same behavior. This was all before I understood the gear icon. I did notice sometimes the real time fuel economy gauge would tank and the engine would get loud. Switching briefly to EV and back seemed to improve both.

    Since I didn't take any trips when it was warm out I don't have anything to compare it too. The only thing I was speculating on was that maybe the car was trying to charge more to compensate for the heater.
     
  9. Just curious...are you just guessing the rpm from the sound, or do you have some way to read it directly?
     
  10. Sandroad

    Sandroad Well-Known Member

    Sure enough, it’s hard to get a good feel for the car from only reviews. Those folks have a vehicle for a very short time, write what they want to, and can’t cover everything. To be fair, the Clarity PHEV is not unique in needing some driver input. All the PHEVs or hybrids I’ve driven or know about are a much better driving experience if the main battery has some charge in it. In a standard hybrid, the car manages that for you, but in a PHEV, you need to make sure you retain at least some charge as you tool around. To simplify the operation for your particular situation, you only need to toggle HV on and off with the HV button. Leave it in ECON all the time (or SPORT if you prefer) and when you get on the highway, hit the HV button. When you get off the highway or get within EV miles of your home, toggle off HV. Pretty much what you wrote, but simplified to just using one button.
     
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  11. Dan Albrich

    Dan Albrich Well-Known Member

    My Clarity has never been able to retain electric range when in HV mode, even on flat ground. I presumed this was everyone's situation, but actually I now think my car's lack of ability to retain EV range in HV mode to be anomalous. Be that as it may, it's my reality. To keep the car comfortable to drive, I select HV mode early on in my driving to preserve the electric as best possible, then do exactly as the OP suggests. i.e. on way home, when close to estimated range, go with all EV. I then get home with zero miles of EV range, and start charging. But yes, this pattern predictably (in my case) and with 100% accuracy causes the angry bees sound whenever EV range goes to zero. It's not intermittent at all, it's a constant.
     
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  13. David Towle

    David Towle Well-Known Member

    Wow that is really different behavior than what most of the rest of us experience.
    I assume you have brought the car to the dealer in this state and they claim its normal?
    Have you had the chance to drive another Clarity and verify that its different?
     
  14. PHEV Newbie

    PHEV Newbie Well-Known Member

    My advice for keeping a significant charge when driving in HV is mostly for folks taking road trips, where the roads and elevations are unfamiliar. Since your commute is very familiar, you might not need the max horsepower of the combined traction battery and ICE. If that's the case, just drive the car and not worry about the modes. What is unclear is whether HV fuel economy is better with a significant charge in the battery. I've consistently gotten outstanding MPG in HV mode (52 mpg going 50-55 mph and 48 mpg at 60-65 mph) with a charge but it might simply be that I'm a slowpoke. Most folks have reported getting only 40-42 mpg but it seems that they are driving at 75-80 mph (when they state their speeds). Speed kills mileage so I suspect a little Prius isn't much better at those speeds.
     
  15. PHEV Newbie

    PHEV Newbie Well-Known Member

    In my experience, when I go to HV mode with a full charge, the Clarity will rapidly use up a fraction of the battery (somewhere to around 90%) and then more slowly deplete some more of the battery (to a bit below 80%?) before it will hold the charge. The first part makes complete sense. You don't want a full charge in HV mode because the car doesn't have the option of adding some charge to the battery during regen, etc. The second part is a bit more mysterious. I suppose it's because constantly charging and discharging the battery a little at a time (as is routine in HV mode) near the upper end is not good for battery health (best is at about 50%). I suppose that's the rationale for why HV charge will only go to 58%.

    In any case, if your Clarity cannot hold a charge in HV mode, let's say at 60-70%, that's a something the dealer needs to fix.
     
  16. ab13

    ab13 Active Member

    People are generally not used to high rpm on an ICE, but when turning a generator it's the more efficient mode.
     
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  17. craze1cars

    craze1cars Well-Known Member

    Bingo!! The engine in this car is primarily a generator. It does NOT propel the car in most circumstances. As anyone who owns a generator can attest, they FREQUENTLY run at full throttle. So the fact that this car runs it’s engine periodically at higher speeds is fully expected, and very efficient. The fact that people feel the need to somehow trick the car into slowing down the engine just baffles me...do NOT hit the EV button just to shut the engine down! When the engine is revving it is following a program, doing exactly what it needs to do in order to maintain peak efficiency and battery and engine health. Let it work! It’ll slow down when it doesn’t need to rev anymore. If the fact that the engine rpm doesn’t follow linearly with your go-pedal is that big of a problem for you, it may mean you have purchased the wrong car...but it doesn’t mean it’s not working right. On my 4200 mile road trip I hammered thru mountain passes exceeding 12,000 ft and those angry bees were screaming at times...sometimes even in downhills and other times when not expected. Yet thru these mountain passes it got a legit 50 mpg and had plenty of power when needed. And no I wasn’t sitting there switching between modes all the time which in my belief just serves to confuse the computer. Let the car make its choices, and just drive it. Yes the engine may scream high rpm at times. So what? Turn the radio up a notch or two if that bugs you...

    I did a 600 miles stretch on a dead battery in EV mode at 80 mph. Performance of the car was exactly the same as another 600 mile stretch at 80 mph on a relatively full battery in HV mode. Mpg and performance exactly the same both stretches. I never once experienced a loss of hp when cramming my foot to the floor to pass on 2 lane roads or merge onto interstates, whether battery gauge was full or empty. Why? Cuz it became fully apparent to me the car is smart enough to save its own reserve, even if the gauges on the dash don’t reflect it to the driver.

    It’s amazing to me how people are trying to override Honda’s programming by hitting buttons and trying to override what the car needs to do just because the engine speeds up. I firmly believe you’re accomplishing nothing, and possibly hurting efficiency...or the battery....or the engine.

    Engines can rev fast and live to tell about it. Frankly it’s good for any engine that short cycles all the time like this one. High revving builds heat, purges excess moisture, runs higher oil pressure allowing lubrication to improve and preventing sludge accumulation, cleans carbon from combustion chambers, etc. it’s idling, lack of use, and constant slow rpms that cause engine damage over time. Trust the car. It knows what it’s doing. Your engine has chosen to rev high for a little while because it NEEDS to based on your usage and driving patterns. The driver doesn’t need to understand why. Just drive.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2018
  18. Elektra

    Elektra New Member

    Great explanation craz1cars. That all makes perfect sense. Thanks!
     
  19. KentuckyKen

    KentuckyKen Well-Known Member

    Why force the engine to rev to its max when you can easily avoid it by just keeping some charge in the battery by a single button push? I think that would reduce the stress on the engine and help it last longer. That’s my strategy since I keep cars for a long time.
    I’ve never heard the high reving angry bees (even on long steep hills) and I don’t plan on ever hearing them.
     
  20. MNSteve

    MNSteve Well-Known Member

    The most simple algorithm would be to run the engine at its most efficient speed and gear the resulting rpm to the most efficient speed for the generator. Except when it is directly connected to the wheels, there is no reason why the ICE should not run at the most efficient speed for generating power that runs the electric motor, any excess going into the battery.

    Personally, it bugs me when the ICE revs inexplicably. I find it annoying. If the car is doing what the car "should" be doing, that's fine, but it does not provide me with a pleasing driving experience. I've never had any shortage of power; I just do not like it. So I find that my personal driving procedure is to use HV on the highway, keeping the EV for non-highway driving. This is my personal preference; not trying to impose it on anyone else.
     
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  21. craze1cars

    craze1cars Well-Known Member

    I'll try explaining it differently...this isn't a perfect illustration but I quickly found a generic representation (non Honda) of how RPM relates to power generation of a typical electric generator...it is very "peaky" to use language used when describing typical torque/HP curves:
    typical-powercurve.png

    Now...apply it to the Clarity. When your ICE first fires up due to electrical demand (HV mode activated either manually or by bringing EV range to zero), the engine is running, rather slowly for a bit. The engine is just warming up...get the oil circulated and warmed up for maybe 5 minutes before putting a big load on it...at this rpm yes the engine is running, but you're still mostly burning battery and EV range continues to drop. Let's guestimate at this point it's revving at maybe 1,500 rpm and not obtrusive. It is no coincidence that most gasoline powered cars, with today's modern high-ratio gearing and overdrive, are also often running at 1,500 or 2,000 rpm all the way up to 70 mph -- this is simply what modern non-aggressive drivers have become accustomed to...an engine that rarely exceeds 2,000 rpm in most driving circumstances.

    But those engines aren't spinning generators. A brave new world.

    Back to the chart. Most generators have a very specific RPM they are most efficient at. Naturally Honda would target this. And as a general rule it's in the 3,000 to 3,400 rpm range, but all are different. The other consideration is trying to provide a definition of "Angry Bees". For many, it might be as low as 2,500 rpm. For others, it might be 5,000 rpm. We have no earthly idea since Honda didn't give us a tach.

    As stated earlier, when the engine first fires up and is walking along at 1,500 RPM and warming up it is entirely possible it is generating only 25% of the electricity it could generate if it were running at 3,000 rpm instead, where it is most efficient at producing power. Of course spin it at 5,000 rpm and it will generate even MORE power, but maybe only 25% more while burning 2 or 3 times the gasoline...efficiency drops way off. For generators: Extremely high RPMS are not efficient. And low RPMS are ALSO not efficient. Mid-range RPMS are most efficient.

    So knowing this, what is the most efficient between these 3 options: Run the engine at 1,500 rpm for 4 hours? Or run the engine at 3,000 rpm for 1 hour? Or run the engine at 5,000 rpm for 45 minutes? All three produce the same amount of electricity in the end. Option 1 is more pleasant and quiet. But the 3,000 rpm run for 1 hour would burn less gasoline than either of the other 2 options. This is what Honda programmed into the car. And for this reason, I believe on typical high-speed interstate runs in HV mode...AND SOMETIMES AROUND TOWN...this engine very likely running in the 3,000 rpm range periodically -- and by design -- because it is the most efficient rpm for producing electricity after the engine warms up. The car's goal is to spin a higher RPM for a shorter period of time to save gasoline, charge the battery as fast as reasonable, and shut itself off so you can go back to saving yet more fuel -- and SOME owners report "angry bees" at this 3,000 rpm level because for the past 20 years they've been driving cars that walk along at 1,500 to 1,800 rpm at 70 mph...and cars that NEVER spin 3,000 rpm while coasting down a hill -- like the Clarity might occasionally do.

    For those who wait for the engine to warm up, then it starts to rev, and it bothers them so they hit the EV button a couple times and then switch back to HV just for the sake of shutting down the engine noise? I think you're being simply wasteful -- confusing the computer and starting the engine warm-up process over again. If the car is allowed to rev a bit more it's converting gasoline into electricity in the most efficient manner. But the average driver doesn't get that, and thinks the engine is simply revving too fast. It's not.

    No question when I was hammering to the top of a 12,000 foot mountain pass, I was way up in the 5,000 to 5,500 rpm range on this car. The generator was producing as much electricity as it possibly could, but certainly not efficiently...it was just tapped out. And this was evident by looking at the live MPG meter (this is the best representation we have on this car of a tach) and seeing it was getting less than 15 mpg on the way up. Those weren't "angry bees", those were "irate bees screaming for bloody mercy".

    Now compound it with the fact that in electric mode this car with active noise cancellation is darn near the quietest thing anyone has EVER driven. It's easy to get used to that. Then the engine kicks on and after warm-up it revs to 3,000 rpm. While you're traveling only 40 mph no less. This makes the engine quite noticeable. And that bothers some people. They report "angry bees."

    Lets compound it further and acknowledge that most Clarity purchasers bought this car for relatively short trips, with most striving for as much EV driving as possible, and there are few road-trip discussions here and few long-ride vacations taken. So if you have a 50 mile range, rarely exceed it, and now drive it 60 miles one day, you have 50 miles of usual silence and a comparative 10 miles of "wierdness" and "angry bees" -- which you would rapidly learn and understand more if you just kept driving for another 200 miles. Many owners would benefit from allowing the programming to go through all of its cycles periodically so they can learn more about the car...instead of ALWAYS trying to drive it like a BEV. This is NOT a BEV -- it's a PHEV. Running the engine is good and smart...an engine that never starts is an engine that's dying a slow death.

    Anyway, on longer trips I assure you the car settles in eventually -- the first 10 to 15 minutes or so of ICE coming on can be a bit odd as the engine warms up, you still lose more EV range, then the engine later starts revving to replace that EV range it lost during that warm-up process. It later does settle in to a nice even RPM after the computer figures out what load it's really taking on with this particular trip...unless of course you keep pushing buttons and resetting things...

    My biggest point is it's just different. Not broken. And whether people "like" it or not is very subjective so there's no point in even discussing it -- if you don't "like" it, by all means do whatever you "like..." Push buttons till you're happy, or sell the car, or whatever.

    And as a disclaimer ALL of my numbers above are fabricated/estimated/assumed out of my own head and from my own experience of driving (and tuning and rebuilding) many 4 cylinder cars aggressively and knowing what they sound like...and having repaired/tuned/rebuilt multiple gasoline powered electric generators...I really do think my numbers are relatively close to reality.

    Enough yammering -- just trying to explain my train of thought. Maybe this clarified or maybe it confused...
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2018
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  22. MNSteve

    MNSteve Well-Known Member

    The ICE has two modes (not counting OFF): Directly geared to the wheels, and generating electricity using the generator. I'm ignoring the first mode for now; it seems to work well (in the rare cases when the controller deigns to use it).

    Both the engine and the generator have a most-efficient-rpm point. Let's say for purposes of this discussion that the engine runs most efficiently at 2200 rpm and the generator produces the most power at 3000 rpm. So we introduce a 1.3 ratio gear, and now both components are running at their most efficient. So WHY would you EVER run the engine at a different speed? (Remember I have put aside the "gear" case.) Any other speed is definitionally less efficient.
     
  23. craze1cars

    craze1cars Well-Known Member

    I have no idea if this car has any gearing whatsoever -- for all I know the generator might be direct drive off the engine's crankshaft. Does anyone know? I don't...

    But to answer your "why every run engine at different speed" question: I speculate 2 reasons: 1, slower rpms at start-up allow the engine to warm up easily, extending its lifespan. 2. Because Honda testers realized that owners might not like angry bees...

    I think #2 is very real -- Ideally if efficiency was the ONLY goal they SHOULD program the car to sit at a stoplight and run a 3,000 rpm so it can help charge up the battery from a previous drain. But can you imagine the complaints then? Driver experience needs to also be considered or nobody would buy the car. On my Clarity it seems they put some effort into emulating footwork-to-engine rpm within reason. When coasting up to a stoplight with the engine running due to cold weather or whatever, the rpms do slow down -- and when I step on the gas to accelerate the rpms raise again.

    While I agree entirely this not the most efficient way to operate a generator, I do very much believe Honda programmed the engine to slow down at slower speeds and lower load times, simply to make the car somewhat more pleasant to drive and more natural sounding in HV mode. Even with a slight efficiency trade-off.

    And I also think sometimes the engine just needs to rev -- and it overrides driver experience to do what it needs to do for the engine and/or battery.

    Really it's likely the same reason they programmed in the silly "let your foot off the pedal and the car creeps forward" thingy. That's the most ridiculous thing ever in my opinion -- but it might appeal to the masses who are accustomed to the past 50 years of cars doing that.

    And again I'm speculating. I do not pretend to know the answer.
     

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