2021 Hyundai Kona may have same battery issues as 2019-2020 models

Discussion in 'Hyundai Kona Electric' started by livingthecadream, Aug 31, 2021.

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  1. Actually the limited responses so far indicate 80% did indeed charge to 100%, (2 MY pre 21 and 2 MY 21), only one pre MY is 80% or less. My guess is Hyundai is playing the same numbers worldwide with the charging limit recall. (90% here, 80% there), maybe to slow down the frequency of dead cars in relation to available battery replacements while actually measuring the outcome of the limitations.
     
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  3. Thanks for that info:)
    Can I assume it was the subsequent re-charge (after the 100% one) when your car showed the error?
     
  4. IGSAD

    IGSAD New Member

    I can't be completely sure of that, I had a tendency to park in the garage and charge it overnight to 80% so might have plugged it in 2 or 3 times. I have a level II charger that I use but only at 15 amps due to the service of my house not being able to handle more (according to code).
     
  5. Very true, and your pack is probably not one affected by a manufacturing defect. lots of cars have been charged to 100% with no errors and lots of mileage as well.
    And then again some higher mileage cars are:
    https://www.speakev.com/threads/bugger-vicky-got-the-ev-triangle-of-death.161702/page-10

    I guess my point here, is if one is an owner of a car containing defective manufactured cells, charging to 100% is probably one way to find out within too long.
     
    NS KONA Elec likes this.
  6. You are on the right track with your poll.
    I would like to throw something "against the wall" here and see if it sticks.
    It appears that the 2021 bricking issue is not something that is caused by a single event. All indications regarding LG pouch issues in general seem to revolve around the fact that the pouches are kind pliable, may or may not have issues with anodes/insulation and seperators. These are linked to QA issues in manufacturing that were missed due to some assembly line errors that weren't caused. I wish there was a battery expert in the room, but it seems as though charging cycles (from low to high) create heat, expansion in the packs at the cell level (in a confined space). If there happens to be a cell in the mix that already has manufacturing issues...this leads to some sort of rubbing or cutting that could result in low resistance between the anode and cathode? If the resistance is low enough we call this a short.
    So..rather than looking for a single incidence that precipitates the bricking event, perhaps it is cumulative degradation. Ie...it happens over time. I know that in my case, I charged several times to 100% prior to the wife's road trips to maximize range (all at level 2). The final bricking did happen when she returned and the car was charged to 100% (I forgot to set it back to 80%).
    This is supported by guidance from Hyundai to charge to 80%. Not necessarily because the issue happens at 100%, but perhaps because repeated cycles increases the degradation IF you have a cell with a defect. Add on top of this the unknown about level3 charging. This is likely has something that increases the cumulative effect because it happens (most likely) when an owner is low on charge and needs to come up to a relatively high charge to continue on their journey. It happens within the timeframe of minutes. Alot of energy is dumped into the pack in a short period of time, the pack reacts by heating up, expanding in a very short period of time, then the owner hits the road and knocks it back down to a low charge. Nothing that should be unexpected by a manufacturer, but if you have a defective cell, this will likely have a cumulative effect on the battery very quickly.
    The other confusing part here (once again, I wish there was a battery expert in the room) is that over time as HL GreenPower assembled these batteries, changes were made, insulation was added, BMS (the actual module) was changed, BMS software was changed, were the cells changed from E63 to E66A. Lots of variables were changed meaning that all of our batteries aren't "exactly" the same.
    Some owners with early Konas (perhaps an older BMS that can't detect issues?) are told to reduce charge and wait for a new battery.
    Some owners with early konas (but with a new BMS that can detect issues?) are told to upgrade the software that enhances detecting issues before they start.
    Some owners with 2021s (like me) likely have the new BMS that can detect an issue and came preloaded with the software to brick the vehicle if it detects a problem.
    Bottom line is that fires only happened in a few Konas that had the unfortunate cell defects (not all cells have the defects). It is reasonable to assume that the updated batterys with improved BMS and software would still only affect a small number of vehicles that may have cell defects.
    Remember, a battery pack is made of 3 cells in parallel and 98 of these in series to develop the voltage. You need one bad cell to ruin this for the owner and that one bad cell might be rare in the production process but still happens enough to have more than a handful of 2021 owners with bricked vehicles waiting for new packs.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2021
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  8. Most of the fires most likely resulted as a result of multiple snowballing issues. Defects in cell manufacturing, defects in BMS and OBC charger firmware allowing slight overcharge, users charging to 100%, ...
    Each event on itself is not catastrophic. But multiple ones happening time over time and snowballing can become one.

    And like you said, even if the rate of problematic cells is only around 0,1% this still implies that 10% battery packs can have issues as one bad cell is enough to spoil the whole battery pack.
     
    NS KONA Elec likes this.
  9. eurokeitai

    eurokeitai New Member

    Few thoughts on the topic.

    First, the hyundai BMS issue detection method is just not very accurate. Cell voltages and internal resistance will deviate, and not all deviations are fire risks. My suspicion is, that the BMS is bricking many fine battery packs. Hyundai will rather change a few extra battery packs than take the bad publicity of another pack fire. While frustrating while battery is under warranty, this real problem is long term. Instead of having a long range EV that gradually degrades to an 100 mile city EV, you have a car that at any moment may decide you may not use that battery anymore...

    Second, Hyundai is taking LG's word that they fixed the issue by 2020. They introduced cathode coating insulation, and fixed the production problems with folded anode tabs etc. But from the Bolt recall, we know that post 2020 LG batteries have some issues. These are likely OTHER, more rare manufacturing issues. If one battery in a million has defect, at (98*3)*100 000 kona sold, thats 30 kona fires. How exactly do you make a battery factory QA so tight that not even one in a million slips through?
     
  10. Danhen

    Danhen Member

    I never said such a thing and don't like having words put in my mouth.

    One has to wonder how many of your other so-called facts are not facts at all.

    As I clearly said there's a whole lot of speculation going on here, and sure there's a possibility that some of it is true. But clearly at the same time there's quite a bit of conspiracy theory bouncing around here too.

    Let's be careful to separate facts from speculation.
     
    John Lumsden, Ginginova and R P like this.
  11. Your points are spot on. I also agree that the BMS monitoring software is probably overly aggressive in its judgment calls and this is compounded by the likelihood that Hyundai/LG are understating the true severity of the problem. As you stated this problem basically relatively fine while your under warranty but the moment your out of warranty and get stranded by the overly sensitive BMS your only options will be a new $20k+ battery or financial write off of the vehicle.
    The other option might be to somehow get a copy of older BMS firmware, an appropriate (expensive) scan tool and rewrite this code to the vehicle. The way they have it setup its the only way to make the vehicle functional again without a dealer battery replacement and BMS reflash. This of course assumes your battery is not actually short circuiting. Sadly in the end its probably going to be a bad idea for most folks to keep their Kona EVs after warranty expires.
     
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  13. Shark

    Shark Active Member

    That's 10 years. Better than the Tesla situation, where once the 8 year warranty expires you have no choice but to go back to Tesla as they won't share service info or sell parts to independent garages.

    One would think 10 years from now you'll see plenty of independent garages equipped to work on EV's, including batteries.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2021
    Lars likes this.
  14. If Hyundai will be bricking perfectly functional batteries when warranties expire I am sure that we will see some class action suit going on at least in USA.

    Also I suspect they will try to avoid bad customer experience as much as possible, as this is a time bomb which can explode in the future and can hit their future reputation and sales of EVs if not handeled properly.

    So I suspect they will be taking quite a lot of bricked batteries in and examining them for any issues found as it makes economic sense as the battery pack is extremely expensive.

    And this can bring future BMS updates to fine tune the logic on one hand and some additional *** kicking of LG (or SK innovation) if the results will be that there are some relevant deficiencies found to bricked battery packs.
     
    Lars, NS KONA Elec and electriceddy like this.
  15. XtsKonaTrooper

    XtsKonaTrooper Active Member

    The way I look at it, just because any ev mfg brand battery expires in on average 8 yrs warranty shouldn't mean that the battery degradation is massive or say the battery catches fire or is no good because of this recall.
     
    Lars likes this.
  16. This has turned is a fiasco on my end. Car was at dealer for 3 weeks due to battery issue, and out of all the cars on the dealer lot mine was attempted break in. Bent the driver window , cracked the weld and scraped up the rear window with what I assume was a jimmy bar.
    Dealer said they were not responsible and now I have to put in a claim under my insurance.
    Now on top of that, the report says that hyundai service told the tech that my car is NOT under recall but to change the charging limit to 80% and give it back to me. WTF!
    Either I am or I am not under recall. Which is it. Do I just loose capacity from what I bought the car for?
    Not a happy first time Hyundai owner here.
     
  17. XtsKonaTrooper

    XtsKonaTrooper Active Member

    Really eh...that blows.
    I've said the same thing about parking away from my house, so it be broken into or vandalized and then my insurance is jacked.
    Surely Hyundai is not gonna pay your insurance increases for the next several years and this crsp is not even your fault.
     
  18. You can certainly run the VIN yourself to check for a recall.
     
    Kirk likes this.
  19. From the posts here, that doesn't seem to have been the case in Canada. And I don't think Hyundai Motor America is that customer friendly either.
    Hyundai told you to bring the car in, and the dealer's not responsible for its care? Ask them for their insurance company and file a claim there first. If they won't tell you, contact your state agency that regulates car dealers. Or, ask your insurance company what to do; maybe they'll pay you and claim against the dealer.
     
  20. I think you missed the sarcasm tags on your post. It makes you sound like a troll.
     
  21. @Toolworker
    I spoke to my agent and they said it would not affect my insurance if I claim it. He said they would try to recoup the deductible and if they do I would get it back. I just don't want to deal with this anymore.

    At this point i'm going to file a complaint with Hyundai for the whole deal. This is a joke. I asked the service tech if there was any fire issues and they said Hyundai service told them there was no issues and to let me take it home. Ok. no issues, no problem. I'm just racking up the days i'm out of a car.

    Glad, yet sad, I decided to go with the lease. I really liked the car, but I'm pretty certain I'm not keeping this after the 3 years are up, if it doesn't get lemon'd first.
     
    XtsKonaTrooper likes this.
  22. XtsKonaTrooper

    XtsKonaTrooper Active Member

    I'd be cautious though. On my insurance, cuz of my record have 1st accident forgiveness and it wouldn't affect my premiums, however , If there is another claim, then the premiums go up and follow me for 5 or 7yrs.
    So you might have similar and this used up your freebie, so if by chance you do another claim, your premiums might go up....but honestly I'd never trust insurance reps cuz their in the same league as car salesmen to me, imo. Lol

     
  23. I was making a suggestion as you seemed to be at a loss as to whether your car was actually under recall.
     

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