Repair issues and fixes

Thanks to KiwiME for his deep insight of the debris in reduction gear problem. Also my gratitude to OzKona for ordering/posting here the used oil test.
I own a Kia Niro EV in Moscow, Russia, bought it from SK with 42000 km on the odometer in November 2020. Changed the oil in December 2020, it was black and dirty, the same as in other Hyundai/Kia EV owners reports. I used Liqui Moli TopTec MTF 5300 70w-75. My current mileage is 72000 km, think it’s time to replace the oil again, already ordered 2 drain plugs advised by KiwiME.
Can order the used oil test if it will be useful

 

Not that I'm an expert on reading these but the aluminium and silicon levels are unexpected. It's certain the analysis company no idea how this gearbox is constructed so their generic comments are reasonable.

In my opinion the aluminium can only result from bearing outer raceways spinning occasionally in the housing, and that's confined to the input and intermediate shafts because the output shaft races should be a press fit. If it's the input shaft that's likely due to the over-constrained situation that occurs when the motor is bolted in place. The motor shaft will will support that end of the input shaft and not allow the nearby gearbox bearing to carry the full load. Another possibility is that ferrous debris entering the bearing causes drag that increases the likelihood of spinning the outer raceway. And the last and most unlikely (due to the locale ) is that the additional drag due to cold oil kicked it off.

The silicon loading can only likely be from dirt entering through the vent. Are you driving on dusty roads? A second analysis in perhaps a year would provide more insight.

Thanks for sharing this!

 

Thanks for the comments. Nope, no dusty roads and never seen an unsealed road. It's just been a suburban runabout with one 250km each way highway trip.

I've sent the report to HMCA but no acknowledgement of receipt yet.

I will do a second analysis in another 6000km, at 10,000. Meanwhile I'm considering the oil I put in 9 days ago is a flush. It is coming out today and new Penrite going in. Covid Omicron permitting, we have a 2000km interstate highway trip coming up in two weeks so that 10k kms is going to come up reasonably quickly.

 

I was considering another change as well after I accumulate a few more kms and my 2nd plug shows up. One thing while you're in there, perhaps check that the magnet is still firmly in place and the epoxy has not been softened after being exposed to the oil? Careful with using any hard tools on it though as these types of magnets can be brittle. Just a wiggle (like a tooth!) might be enough.

EDIT: I'll just add a note while I can still edit this, I posted just the numerical values on FB (not your info) and a person who seems to have better experience reading the reports says that the analysis can't distinguish between the silicone gasket and silicon as in sand. Seems a bit weird to me but thought I'd mention it.

Meanwhile, a diligent owner in Southern California (my previous home area) has taken my advice and had his oil changed by the dealer. His 2021 also has only 4,000 km on it.


Lastly, I thought this video might be interesting for some readers just because it illustrates what's happening inside. This gearbox is very similar to what we have when viewed from the left side of the car.

 

I finished the job before I read your post, KiwiME. The Shell video is very interesting.

The oil I took out this morning has been in there for 250km.

There was a very slight amount of fine debris on the magnet. You wouldn't expect much more given the low mileage and the fine-ness of the particles, as previously discussed. I fumbled the plug a bit as I was removing it and inadvertently wiped part of the magnet (the top right quarter in the pic), but over half of it was undisturbed. I wiped what was on my finger onto the face of the plug - you can see that in the pic as well.


Because I hadn't yet read your post I didn't think to check the magnet for security. But I did vigorously clean it with a rag and felt nothing untoward.

Re the silicon and the FB contributor: That offers a credible explanation for the silicon content in the oil.

I know there is no dirt ingress, which is the other explanation for the presence of silicon, unless it was introduced during manufacture which is highly unlikely, one would hope. I read your magazine excerpt about OEM techniques not necessarily being the best, including breathers open to the environment. But this one would be no different to the 12 or so cars I have owned and maintained (DIY) over the years, none of which displayed an issue such as this. I am not particularly worried about the silicon now.

But I AM concerned about the aluminium, especially following your comments about the possibility of bearings moving in their housings. I suppose there's not much that can be done about that on our own cars except perhaps split the transmission and use bearing locating compound to glue them in place . Loctite makes one, but the task is not for me, I'm afraid!! If the need arises I hope it will be under warranty, and if it's outside warranty I will use these pages and the oil tests as ammunition for an ex-warranty FOC repair. (Similar to my BT50 engine that catastrophically failed 2 years and 20k outside warranty. That replacement cost Mazda about $20k. Amazingly, they barely flinched.)

Here is the 250km old oil. Though it looks dark in the bottle, very similar to the OEM fluid that I removed 10 days ago, it is much lighter when you observe it in the drain pan - you can actually see the bottom of the pan through it which was not possible with the OEM fluid.



I am disturbed by the amount of colloidal metal in this 250km flush. I didn't expect as much as I got. Some of it will be as a result of the flush but I suspect a good proportion is new material. You can see it a bit in the two pics of the drain pan (the curvey lines that look like ripples near the filter drain post in the left pic and near the 45* corner of the pan in the right pic), but it was impossible to get a good pic without reflections - the camera sees more of those than the eye does, unfortunately. The straight bars in the left pic are the corrugations in the pan.

 

That transparency looks a bit like the oil I reused after 40 km. It must discolour easily from what's left in the housing after a drain, same as explaining the fuzz retained on the magnet. That justifies the 2nd oil change, IMO.

As for the aluminium I'd agree that it's something best left to fate at this point and not worth fretting over. There's nothing practical that can be done and I expect that your importer warranty (I'm out of warranty now) and/or our country's (or NSW) respective consumer protection laws would go a long way to effect any required repairs.

If it's any consolation it doesn't take much wear to create either a gear whine or knocking noise from a loose bearing, which neither of us appear to have. Without intending to sound glass half empty, it's entirely plausible that neither of us will have any problems ongoing, as so many examples do without even the benefit of this added attention.

 

The Aus warranty for all but the traction battery is 5yrs, unlimited km. The calendar will get me before the odo does. After that, it is Australian consumer law. A product must be fit for purpose and durable for the intended use. I expect a low kilometer out of warranty claim beyond 5 years for a failed gearbox would (at least, should) be viewed favourably under that regime.

Off topic comment: That is why Mazda had to stump up for my out-of-warranty engine replacement at 120,000km - it failed the durability test. It helps if you pay the extra for dealer service - more expensive than ex dealer, but given our consumer laws, I consider it to be a worthwhile insurance premium. The dealer service record helped and Mazda Australia were excellent. I would have bought a Mazda EV if they'd had one that met our needs.

 

With all the oil changes that you and OzKona are doing - if you need more crush washers I now have an abundant supply and can mail you some if you like.

 

Hey, thanks for that, John, will keep that in mind!

 

Thank you John, but I have a 10 pack coming with my second magnetic plug. When they run out I'll drop a line here - possibly early 2027 if I stay with an annual oil change

 

A second oil analysis report has come in, off Reddit but the owner is Canadian. It seems aluminium and silicon are also high from the comments. I'd have to assume that the numbers are also PPM.
If that's the case some values are three times higher than OzKona's. I'd assume that the odometer is the "15600" (km).



If it's not readable the original link is here.

I've just jotted down OzKona's numbers underneath as a comparison. Split into two halves to get around the poor forum resolution.

 

I have a possible explanation for the unexpectedly high discolouration etc of my 250km "flush" and also KiwiME's replacement fluid that had only a few km on it when he drained it to install his magnetic plug.

The owners manual says the fluid capacity is 1 - 1.1 litre. Perhaps the initial fill is 1.1 litre and subsequent fills are 1 litre neat due to 0.1 litre retained, possibly in the differential assembly, depending on its orientation when the drain was done. When I drained the flush fluid I got exactly 1.0 litre. (At the original drain I clumsily lost a bit, so I don't have an accurate amount for that occasion.)

That 100ml of retained OEM fluid, if present, would have readily discoloured the new flush fluid - but to what extent?

Grasping at straws? .......

 

I've been pondering that oddity myself. The teardown video shows a dam going across at least one side of the floor of the housing, probably both with the other hidden under the pile of debris, which might be trapping that 100cc. That dam may be intended to do exactly what's it's done here in these photos, collect debris. Perhaps this is some clever substitute for a magnet?

The fact that both our examples exhibited a similar discolouration at 40 and 250 km makes me agree that it is simply dilution from retained black oil. If the gap between the halves of the dam was not filled with sealant it might even drain if left overnight.

I can't think of any practical way to clean it out other than a few more oil changes. In the end though just one oil change every 2 years or so is far, far better than the 120,000 km the vast majority of Konas will see.

With all those elements in the oil and a bit of electricity nearby it's wonder that some new form of life doesn't emerge from this primordial soup.

 

Ah, yes, that little dam could easily account for 100ml.

And look at the debris behind it that is being scooped out! As you suggest, maybe that is Hyundai's "large particle trap". Doesn't explain the colloidal aluminium though.

 

Holy crap, Hyundai *has* a magnetic drain plug and doesn't spec it for some of their trans or redux boxes??

_H*

 

That’s the sort of reaction I was hoping to get from all owners. It’s an unfortunate oversight.

Another reported oil change today, a Niro on FB. “The old oil was black!”.

Gomer Pyle’s famous expression comes to mind.

 

I’m appreciating the spin on oil filter on my TM3 drive unit more and more as I read this whole thread and prepare to change this fluid in my wife’s Kona prior to the new year…

 

The TM3 uses oil to transfer heat from the motor to the coolant, same as the Bolt. For that reason a pump is needed. And, anytime a pump is used the oil must be filtered or strained first so as not to damage the pump. So, the standard spin-on filter seems like a good low-cost solution for Tesla even though the capacity is overkill, sufficient for the car's lifetime so no change is called out. The Bolt uses a strainer at the oil pickup and there's a huge magnet in the oil stream, likewise no filtration maintenance required.
So what does Hyundai do? The motor is cooled directly by coolant at the stator and the bearings are grease-lubricated, all good so only splash-lubrication is needed for the gearbox. But they've neglected the most basic level of particle filtration which guarantees the oil will turn black in short order and subject the bearings to a beating.

 

I've only driven 100km on the Redline oil I had removed and filtered through an N95 mask, but I'm doing another oil change today with Penrite based on the ~100cc that OzKona identified that cannot be drained. Will let it drip for several hours or perhaps overnight if today gets as hot as promised. The magnet had a small amount of very fine power and it seems still secure in the stainless plug. I'll install the second magnetic plug in the filler as well.



I think I'm seeing the light at the end of the tunnel now and hope that I won't need to do this for at least another year. There are still remaining questions about the aluminium and silicon levels but it seems there's nothing obvious that can be done, whatever the source. Sometimes it's more pragmatic not to look for trouble.