Actual Taycan will cost closer to 250K and its no Mission E.

Discussion in 'General' started by 101101, Sep 15, 2019.

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  1. 101101

    101101 Well-Known Member

    Actual Taycan will cost closer to 250K and its no Mission E.

    Noticed that to get the good feature mix on a Tacan its closer to 250K- go to the website and try to build one out- you'll see. Also noticed that it doesn't really deliver on the Mission E concept, its a much more sedate design and even the charging doesn't really hold up against say the Tesla Super Charger Version 3 at 1000 miles per hour. Yes, I know there aren't may V3 Tesla chargers out there yet and its so far Model 3 specific but its the same for Porsche charging in general on availability (availability for Porsche charging outside of the home is a real issue- not so with Tesla) and of course the issues with Porsche prices on charging idiotically tied to ICE prices and not really committing to green on charging but apparently trying to sneak in the natural (toxic) gas scam, kind of like the diesel scam unless there has been something concrete on that beyond rhetoric.

    Taycan pricing really doesn't make sense with what people actually end up paying for the Taycans with acceptable options, one could have a founder series Roadster with cold thrusters for that price or a regular Tesla Roadster and a Model 3 Performance for that price or 4 Model 3 Performance vehicles for that price. Porsche is going to have to worry about cancellations I'd suspect if there is too much variation on getting acceptable options.

    It appears performance wise the Taycan is more of a Model 3 Performance competitor to the extent that I'd say no one except for die hard Porsche loyalists should buy the Taycan without driving the 1/4 price Model 3 Performance- why waste almost 200K in difference for performance that is about the same and likely quite inferior in some ways to the Model 3P. It seems clear the Model 3 Performance won't match the Taycan Turbo S's 0-60 performance but I think the Model 3 can straight beat the Tayan at Nurburgring. This is because the Model 3 Performance is more than 1000lbs lighter and has a higher power to weight ratio and because amateur drivers used it to beat the times set by cars driven by the best of the pros at Laguna and those same cars at Nurburgring beat the Taycan times by as much as 10 seconds- and no the Model 3 apparently doesn't get winded. Also, the Model 3 has more storage and interior volume and my guess is it will be a safer car and more luxurious (because of radically superior self driving tech and Tesla's literally unmatched safety record on crash tests- highest scores ever) and a more reliable car because of a much simpler design- no need to have a transmission its better to have the electric motor do that work- roadster surely doesn't have one for radically better performance than the Taycan and the current S is superior 0-60, 1/4 mile and top end without one and of course the Model 3 Performance has 60 miles more range even without the transmission and the heavier Model S (but still much lighter than the Taycan) at least as much. I also expect Porsche to fall behind on build quality soon if it hasn't already (even as a boutique maker)- note the surprise Bob Lutz had over the panel gaps this summer on a Model 3 when he actually got up close to a Model 3. And I think there are some drive advantages like the one peddle driving in the Model 3 (wonder if people prefer what is in the new Leaf on that.) Also Model 3 looks like a Porsche 928 which was based on a Lamborghini style, can't be an accident- Tesla didn't just hit BMW and Mercedes, it hit Porsche and its already outselling Porsche globally and may sell 20x the number of electrics Porsche will this year. The Taycan looks like a cross between a Boxter and Panamera.


    I have real doubts about the Germans and quality going forward. It may be that their bought Bugatti brand retains some level of unobtainium quality but their arguments on things like switches vs screens are just plain stupid and they really don't have reliability or quality anymore- I don't think they get it, they have becomes firms that are idiotically driven by profit for parasites which is really just thieving and lying, the art went out a long time ago and was replace by gimmickry and dishonesty. How many master craftsmen are left at the German firms. Look at how much dust that center screen collects in the you tube videos. And the bit with the transmission I think was also just about keeping unnecessary parts bin pieces in the car.

    All that said and despite the weight of the Taycan weighing what the average F150 weighs (whereas the Model 3 weighs what the average car does in some of its garbs- some about 1500lbs less than a Taycan) despite all that the Taycan with its huge brakes may be fun to drive and people may like the look. There could still be something in the driving of it. But apparently a Ferrari test driver with almost 5 decades working for Ferrari test driving loves his Model 3 as recent article showed. And Taycan is no Tesla Roadster- that car will likely beat it Nurburgring score by more than a minute and drive like the pinnacle of the hyper car heap that it is- destroys the Batista for power 4x the nm of that car- out performing cars that cost millions.

    But there is one huge difference that the Taycan makes. Its an electric Porsche and Porsche is mainstream ICE and it means that a car that someone who expected tail pipes if they didn't look close wouldn't notice it was electric until they got in and still might not get it with the bifurcated braking and the fake engine noises. And some people with unlimited money who just get the newest Porsche every year on a lease or just have the newest models automatically purchased and sent to them with the butler maintaining them may end up with an electric.

    So this first or actually 2nd electric Porsche kind of has the weight that an electric F150 will have but I expect Tesla to utterly destroy Ford at trucks. Ford's only hope is to suck up to Tesla on their hands and knees (they deserve that richly) to have Tesla source the core tech to help them. Ford thinks it is going to run a self driving Taxi fleet on ICE and replace every 3 years instead of 11 years like Telsa's "1 million mile power train and batteries"- they just don't get it and they won't survive. I am writing off R.J. Scaringe and Rivian for an incredibly stupid comment on electric truck demand- saying it remained to be seen what demand was and if it extended for trucks across all price points as if electrics were still in doubt overall- shows true colors and sounds like someone who has been bought off or bought and paid for- worlds apart from Musk's attitude and his drive and allowing GM to buy into Rivian just seems so foolish. Not investment advice but I expect the stock values of GM and Ford to collapse next year and they surely deserve it, and Rivian despite the Amazon bit to go the way of Baker- have a CEO founder that apparently cashes out like that and its over!

    If you look at POSCO's Giga steel you'll notice in press releases that Toyota, Volkswagen and GM are using it. Do they actually use it in their EVs or only to make their pathetic ICE looks a little less absolutely obsolete. That Giga Steel seems like a revolution, think it might be why Tesla switched to steel for its Starship shell- surely its called Giga as a nod to Tesla as an item that can shave a huge amount of weight off EVs while adding no cost- you can use a 1/3 the thickness of aluminum for the same strength and for an overall weight and strength about the same as titanium but with better ductility and the same price as steel. Is that much different than the stuff that's been used in ICBM shells decades (?)- some ICBM's from the 60s had if memory serves some sort of nickle chromium enhanced stainless steel hulls- still a falling socket wrench if memory serves could disable some of them.

    Seems like the Taycan is trying to introduce the iPhone 5 in 2020 whereas what Tesla is doing is like the iPhone 11 that Jobs would have done if he were alive in 2020. Even beyond tech VW is 7 years behind with payroll, sunk cost and HR that it can't adjust. VW should drop all its projects and just license Tesla designs and become a manufacturer of Tesla products. After Diesel gate the German government is going to have to do a massive bailout of the its auto industry but I still expect Mercedes and BMW are going to have to merge to survive because their executives are idiots or are outright captured by the fossil fuel industry or both.

    The most important thing about the Taycan is it puts to rest the Tesla killer narrative. Toyota and Honda were the other companies that could do something but Honda is playing at the VW ID level and its clear that Toyota will too with a Camry BEV. Tesla will now define the automotive industry period unless BYD or another Chinese make counters. I think China will help Musk and Tesla realize all their dreams. Tesla is a lot further along on Model Y than people realize. With the Giga factory going into German next that will be the 5th factory. TAAS is set to reduce the number of vehicles on the road by 10-18x and each Giga factory might be able to scale up to a million cars a year and Tesla has a full vehicle range now with the pick-up included means Tesla really can take over and meet demand in a way that causes full displacement in the face of a shrinking vehicle market. Tesla is starting to do its own batteries and apparently in some cases buying land that contains lithium. Starlink is moving. Tesla is set to reach Self driving before everyone else- the retrofitting of hardware shows the hardware is finally good enough. Tesla' supper aggressive roof top rental solar plan shows the solar is coming together too. Boring company looks set to have a great future in China.
     
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  3. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber

    By my count, known 250 kW SuperChargers, two locations:
    • 2 - Fremont CA
    • 24 - Las Vegas NV
    BTW, most of the SuperChargers are at 150 kW after an upgrade earlier this year. Trying to calculate the number of 'urban' SuperChargers locations:
    • 314 - 120 kW or above
    • 329 - 50 kW or above
    • 15 - 70 kW, urban SuperCharger locations
    Locally in the Southeast, the smallest SuperCharger locations had 10 car charging stations and I've seen more at SuperCharger locations further away.
    http://plugshare.com/

    The two EVgo stations I've seen in Nashville have been single units and the Manchester and Nashville Electrify America stations had 6-8 charging spots at those locations with 1-4 CHAdeMO. However, it isn't clear there is parking for each CHAdeMO and CCS-1 charging unit. One or the other but not both.

    Bob Wilson
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2019
  4. interestedinEV

    interestedinEV Well-Known Member

    Just given my attention to detail, I went to the Porsche site and configured a Taycan to get the biggest price I could by choosing the most expensive options (mean of me :)). I was curious as to how the $250K price came up. I came up with a price of $236,949, may be if I had played around I could have a gone up a couple of thousand more. So OK, a Tayacan with all options costs about $240K or so (images below provide the full bill of materials). But to get to that price, I had to add all these "need to haves (only a small subset shown)" :);):(:cool::p:D:eek::rolleyes:o_O

    Vehicle Keys in Leather incl. One Key Pouch in Leather $690
    Owner's Manual Wallet in Leather $560
    Ski Bag $250
    Under Door Puddle Light Projectors $330
    Personalized Door-Sill Guards in Matter Carbon Fiber $4,060
    Brumster High End Sound System (in addition to Premium) $5810
    Leather Luggage Set $6,323
    Leather Care Set $63
    etc. etc, (I have not included everything)

    Let us get real. I know that you want to compare apples to apples to show that Taycan is over priced and not a comparison to Model #/S/X. But sometimes it get ridiculous. I am not sure how many people want to buy a leather luggage set with their Porsche, but it should not be included in price comparison. I think most of us agree that the Taycan is a great car in the typical Porsche style, but for that price. it still falls short in some respects compared to Model S e.g. range. However, that the market for the two brands is different, so it is not fair to compare the Model 3 to the Taycan. What you are paying for is the adulation value, to show that you have made it, not a substitute for the X. A person who buys the Taycan is making a statement which is different from that of a Model 3 buyer.




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  5. interestedinEV

    interestedinEV Well-Known Member

    The Porsche Taycan's $500 sport sound option is cool, but kind of absurd

    The Taycan has a lot of gimmicks, one is the sport sound option on the regular model, standard on the turbo. You can for a price, make a EV sound like an ICE accelerating. So it gives you the feeling of an traditional sports car, but with electric drive. They are looking at a different market. The sterotypical Tesla customer is not going to pay for such bells and whistles, which do not really add to performance. This car exemplifies "the lifestyles of the rich and famous" which may be different from the person who lives on 123 N. Main Street.



    https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/the-porsche-taycans-500-sport-sound-option-is-cool-but-kind-of-absurd/ar-AAHonj7

    Porsche , a company that knows a thing or two about building and selling sports cars , just introduced its first electric vehicle to the public last week, but it understands that there are buyers who need something more than the Star Wars-like whine of some electric motors. That's why it's offering an option that promises to make the Taycan sound more visceral. It's called the "Electric Sport Sound" option (you'll find it under Performance).

    What is the Electric Sport Sound and why does Porsche charge $500 for it on the currently-entry-level Taycan Turbo? It's basically a sound clip that the car plays during acceleration, and it seems to add a bit of rumble to the EV whine. Think Episode 1 pod racer rather than Return of the Jedi speeder bike, though you'll have to head to Porsche's configurator to listen for yourself. It's under Performance options. If you spend the extra $30,000 for the Turbo S , it looks like Electric Sport Sound becomes a standard feature, which, let's face it, it should be.

     

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