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Political off-topic meanderings moved here

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by Pushmi-Pullyu, Dec 13, 2017.

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  1. Dec 13, 2017 #1
    Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    Biggest scam in history is "The Donald" fooling tens or possibly even hundreds of millions of supposedly educated American voters into believing that he would make a good President.

    There isn't anything or anyone else that even remotely challenges his success as a con man. By comparison, P.T. Barnum was a two-bit grifter.
     
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  2. Dec 13, 2017 #2
    WadeTyhon

    WadeTyhon Well-Known Member

    Oh, it goes deeper than that my friend. You are missing the big picture.

    The biggest political scam in history is the creation of the electoral college.

    It is now responsible for Donald Trump AND George W Bush. ‘The people’ knew better and voted accordingly. But the system was set up to screw ‘the people’. ;)
     
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  3. Dec 13, 2017 #3
    101101

    101101 Well-Known Member

    But Hillary was talking up WWIII in Iran.
     
  4. Dec 13, 2017 #4
    Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    Hmmmm, I don't at all think the way the Founding Fathers set up the U.S. Electoral College was a "scam". Perhaps the way it has been perverted over the years, to serve the two-party system, is a "scam".

    Now, if you claimed that the real scam is in forcing U.S. politics into the straightjacket of the pure two-party system, rigging the political system to exclude viable third parties... then you might have a good argument, but I'd still argue that "The Donald" scamming people into thinking he might be a good president is a much bigger and more successful con job. After all, the way the political system has been rigged to favor the two-party system is the result of incremental changes by many people over decades or centuries, not any "master plan" orchestrated by one person in a personal quest for the ultimate in self-aggrandizement.

    Just my opinion, of course.
     
  5. Dec 13, 2017 #5
    WadeTyhon

    WadeTyhon Well-Known Member

    Well, by their own admission, one of the reasons for the electoral college was to protect the people from themselves!

    "The Electoral College was created for two reasons. The first purpose was to create a buffer between population and the selection of a President. The second as part of the structure of the government that gave extra power to the smaller states.

    The first reason that the founders created the Electoral College is hard to understand today. The founding fathers were afraid of direct election to the Presidency. They feared a tyrant could manipulate public opinion and come to power."

    So I guess really, you're right it wasn't a scam per se. They were quite up front about their intention to remove the populace from the equation! :)

    "Hamilton and the other founders did not trust the population to make the right choice."

    Of course, the opposite happened in the case of Bush and Trump. The population made the right choice. But the "electoral college" did not. Because as you stated, it is become a system for maintaining the 2 party majority.

    "Hamilton and the other founders believed that the electors would be able to insure that only a qualified person becomes President... It would act as check on an electorate that might be duped."

    Alas...

    http://www.historycentral.com/elections/Electoralcollgewhy.html
     
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  6. Dec 13, 2017 #6
    Feed The Trees

    Feed The Trees Active Member

    Electoral college worked then. It's now means we elect a president based on a few counties in a handful of states. One of many reasons I'm far from a strict constitutionaliast. Probably time for a convention.

    But they'll never go public vote, the GOP lost twice now but won the presidency. This is because Dems huddle into a few major cities and don't really change the overall electoral vote structure much if at all. The move to cities is keeping the GOP in power as they remain in the scattered lands that have inordinate amount of power.
     
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  7. Dec 14, 2017 #7
    Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    Now you've got it, and you didn't need the smiley either. No joke there at all. Our Founding Fathers detested the tyranny of the aristocracy and the "divine right" of kings; the idea that some people were entitled to more rights than others just by accident of birth. But they also distrusted the "tyranny of the majority". That's one reason why our system has so many checks and balances; to give minorities some checks on the power of the majority. In short, it's why our system of government is a democratic republic rather than a direct democracy.

    I won't claim the U.S. Constitution is perfect, but it has stood the test of time surprisingly well for a governmental system created more than two centuries ago! Furthermore, in my opinion, the worst things about the federal governmental system are not what the Founding Fathers intended, but rather how their intention has been perverted over the centuries by dishonest politicians and foolhardy or pandering Supreme Court judges. (Regarding the latter, I'm referring to the legal fiction of a corporate "person" as well as the recent decision that "money is speech".)
     
  8. Dec 14, 2017 #8
    Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    BTW I nominate this thread for biggest topic drift on the forum. Started out with a screed against the "hydrogen economy" scam, and now we're arguing about the U.S. Electoral College!
    o_O :p :confused: :cool:

    Where's the moderator when we need him to create a new thread?
    ;) :)
     
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  9. Dec 14, 2017 #9
    Domenick

    Domenick Administrator

    2018 Tesla Model 3 Long Range RWD
    At 2:00 AM? Sleeping!
     

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  10. Dec 14, 2017 #10
    Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    Well, if you're going to use that excuse... :D
     
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  11. Dec 22, 2017 #11
    terminaltrip421

    terminaltrip421 New Member

    I think that's giving trump too much credit. I'm not saying he's developmentally disabled but he's surely wasted about every last brain cell God ever gave him. which might explain some of his success in capturing the hearts and minds including the well-educated (though intellectuals who work in a hospital environment will tell you education is not a precursor to intellect) in that people thought him too blunt and barish not to be taken at face value. and at least subconsciously recognize a glaring mental deficiency however minute and conflate that with a lack of ill-will at least towards his supporters.
    Bannon on the other hand I think is the one who guided the campaign. the dick cheney, donald rumsfeld or karl rove to his george bush. fortunately his hold is lessened now but that leaves us with a complete incompetent and the 'stupidity-and-greed-turned-malice' party he aligned himself with.
     
  12. Dec 22, 2017 #12
    Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    The Donald and/or his inner circle manage to keep coming up with one "get out of jail free" card after another. If he/they are not clever, then at least he/they have a lot of low cunning. I mean, just look at Trump University: It's painfully obvious that was a scam, one which stole money from a lot of people; and yet The Donald not only managed to stay out of jail, he didn't even get charged with any crime! Surely that can't all be a result of bribes and payoffs. Or at least I'd like to think so.
     
  13. Dec 23, 2017 #13
    terminaltrip421

    terminaltrip421 New Member

    the result of a broken system where money is often all it takes to keep people from being prosecuted or being given lighter sentences. or even corporations being treated like people up to but excluding being held liable. see: the 2008 financial crisis.

    additionally, wherever there's someone with money there's someone else who sees their golden goose. I wouldn't be surprised if Trump is just surrounded people who look out for him even if only because it's in their best interest. he surely has business partners and investors across the board.
     
  14. Mar 17, 2019 #14
    Paul K

    Paul K Active Member

    Same problem in Canada. There are strong alternatives to the ruling Conservatives and Liberals but first past the post nearly always means that one or the other party can win a majority was less than 40% of the popular vote. Justin Trudeau promised that the election that brought him to power would be the last first past the post. After winning power I guess the "handlers" set him straight on that one.

    People are very down on politicians lying and making unrealistic promises but the first job of every politician is to get elected. If you can't get elected by telling the truth then whose to blame? The politicians or the dumb voters?
     

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