Repair issues and fixes

Discussion in 'Hyundai Kona Electric' started by Francois, Oct 7, 2019.

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  1. I have ordered this
    upload_2021-11-26_13-14-41.png
    from Mishimoto. I am hoping it will fit in the filler hole - will test it on receipt - and will also try it in the drain hole when I do the 10k oil change. I like the idea of a larger magnet.
     
    Kirk likes this.
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  3. ericy

    ericy Well-Known Member

    I would still like to see a used oil analysis on the old fluid. There are companies in North America that routinely do this - mainly for fleets, and it isn't hugely expensive.
     
  4. I'm a nervous nellie when it comes to this sort of stuff. I've already asked Votex for more info on how they secure and QA the magnet, to which they have replied:
    I bought a similar SST magnetic drain plug for a new VW Golf TDI in 2003. It was supplied with a plastic washer. By the next oil change both the plug and the magnet were loose. Of course the oil gets hot and the diesel engine vibrates.
    But we have the advantage of customer reviews these days and they seem to be highly supportive of Votek's plugs.

    The Mishimoto plug will fit fine but to a large extent the application details are left up to the customer. I'm not sure why Dowty washers are popular as it's not the sealing that's the primary task, it's keeping the plug secure. Dowty washers are made for high pressure hydraulic applications with steel fittings and I'm unsure if the aluminium surround will deform during the install in our lightly-torqued application. The soft washers we are using now of course deform to match the fine detail of both surfaces and as such are good at keeping the plug secure. Sealing against oil seepage is just icing on the cake.

    The long magnet certainly improves the chances of catching particles. It looks like a high quality part but the first thing that I'm thinking about is what sort of material is it (cast or formed) and will it resist the continuous impinging flow of oil. Will there be flow eddies that will induce a vibration and fatigue-stress the magnet in a bending mode? The other issue is differential thermal expansion between the aluminium plug and magnet and how the glue handles that, although the Kona gearbox barely gets lukewarm. My gut says all this is probably fine but my engineering side says don't start off being biased! My conservative take on this, since I don't have the tools to carry out a formal analysis, is that it's more risky than the Votex product and that alone would put me off.

    I believe the short Votex magnet will be sufficiently effective. Particles need to be right there at the magnet to stick, they don't get pulled from far away. Every mm³ of oil containing a particle of steel will have a very high probability of momentarily being adjacent to the magnet over a long period of running time, a wild estimate might be every hour driving. That time could be reduced by increasing the magnetic area or strength but it's going to be good enough.
    My Suzuki 4x4 has very weak ceramic magnets on the various gear oil drain plugs and the oil always comes out in great condition.
    One owner on Reddit said they'd do that but certainly in NZ there are no inexpensive consumer-oriented analysis services like there are in N. America. In any case I'm confident I know what's in it. It's not like in an engine where there are a dozen potential contaminants.

    *****

    I did write our NZ importer:
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2021
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  5. Well, now you've got me dithering. Mishimoto have advised that the plug is on 6-8 week back order and have offered a refund. I want to try this plug but your reasoning has put me off. Maybe I will cancel my order and use a second Votex.

    I would also like to write to the Aussie importer. May I use your words as a basis? (TBH, plagiarise:rolleyes:) I would change the first sentence to something like
    "I have been discussing the following issue with a degreed mechanical engineer with a fair amount of industrial power transmission experience."
    I intend to stress the low mileage and include the photo of the colloidal metal in the oil, along with an offer to send an oil sample for their analysis.
     
  6. Yeah, sorry, I thought that might happen but I'd prefer to be honest in my opinion. Part of the reason I'd like to stick with a steel plug is that the thermal expansion will be similar or the same and and don't have to worry about cycling the adhesive. A magnet coming adrift in a gearbox would very likely be catastrophic, unlike in an engine where nothing would happen. I'll be checking the Votex at each drain interval.

    You can use whatever seems appropriate from my email and the intro you're suggesting. I also included photos of old oil, Konas identified only by country, model year and kms. And I added a link to the Canadian tech's video, The Off roading Mechanic.

    BTW, is your Kona the series 2 or facelifted version? I'd assumed it was, just verifying, as an owner here has asked if it affects those.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2021
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  8. Apology not needed. Though I'm ok with tools and have a tech bent, I never got a degree so am more than happy to defer to knowledge and expertise that's well above my pay grade.:)

    Thanks for the email stuff. I think it's important that Hyundai be informed. I'm not confident that dealers' sausage factory service departments would do any more than remark upon the dirty oil. I doubt they'd join the dots as has been done in this discussion and pass the info up the chain. I am hoping the near-new 4000km result will attract some attention.

    I'm a bit confused about model variants as each market has different spec levels and different names for same. What is the difference between Series 2 and "facelifted"?
    Mine was sold to me here as a 2021 model. It says on the sale contract it's a
    "Hyundai Kona OS.V4 EV Highlander TTR 150kW 64kWh". Build date 04/21. Compliance date (ie Australian Design Rules compliance. I believe you don't have an equivalent.) 05/21. Model code GKW5ZGZ7ZGGBB821.
    It has the plain face, not the dimples, and Michelin Primacy tyres, not Nexens.
    It also has the 10.25 inch screens and rear USB ports which I think are indicative of USA 2022 model/Series 2?

    I would think if it affects my April 2021 vehicle it will affect all of them unless there has been a transmission mod introduced since then which, though possible, I doubt. I think they might have been preoccupied with batteries:D.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2021
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  9. Thanks, that confirms it as a "Series II." The dealer just 5 min walk from here has two unregistered examples in white and light grey, both in the so-called "Elite" trim which has pretty much everything except a sunroof. They've been sitting there a while because they're priced too high to qualify (>$80k) for our $8,625 rebate. The base model qualifies, priced at $79,990.
    cheers ...
     
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  10. Don't know if we (NZ and AUS) are the same market for Hyundai now, but here's a link to HA:
    https://www.hyundai.com/au/en/cars/suvs/kona/kona-electric
    Scroll down to " Find Your Kona Electric" and you'll see our Elite and Highlander feature lists side by side. Full Aussie specs attached.

    There are no federal govt incentives for EVs here - what else would you expect from that useless mob? - but the Highlander trim squeezes in under my home state's (NSW) incentives. I missed out - bought 4 weeks before the announcement came out of the blue:mad:
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Nov 27, 2021
  11. In 64kWh models the unnamed Series II base model here has the same features as the Aussie Elite, while our top spec Elite is the same as your Highlander. However we can't option a sunroof on the top model and both our versions have the heat pump-based climate system.

    My 2018 base model which is EU Irish market spec (because of a deal done by our importer to get cars in quickly) is much the same as the current base except I have the high-beam assist and electrochromatic mirror, missing the "leather" seating.

    My sister in Sydney also missed out on the incentive but apparently has never had to pay for charging.

    IMG_0170.JPG
     
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  13. So, I've had one owner on Reddit (I presume in the US) report back that his oil was black as well and smells burnt. Says the car "drives smoother" after a change. No details provided as to what year or kms but I'll call that one a "win." Funny, mine drives smoother as well but without a scientific basis to explain that I didn't want to mention it!

    But an Ioniq owner here who's actually had a gearbox fail at 75,000 km won't carry out a preventative oil change on the new gearbox because he believes the dealer's advice to wait till 120,000 km. That left me almost speechless.

    No response at all yet on SpeakEV, HyundaKonaForum or the German Elektrauto Forum. With all the evidence in front of us, I can't imagine a better way to spend $100.
     
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  14. ericy

    ericy Well-Known Member

    You would think that Hyundai would already know that this is an issue. They could issue a TSB to change the fluid and install a magnetic drainplug, and it wouldn't cost them much at all. A lot less that replacing motors and reduction gears.
     
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  15. I'm getting a sample tested so I can discuss further with Hyundai Aus (who haven't yet replied to my email describing the issue with pics of the oil). Only $38.00 at an outfit that does oil analysis for the coal mines in the Hunter Valley. No doubt I'll be referred to my dealer - we'll see what happens.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2021
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  16. hobbit

    hobbit Well-Known Member

    Did either of you guys try swishing a magnet around in your drain oil, to get some idea of what's ferrous
    or not in that goop?

    _H*
     
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  17. The first problem is that they would need to see into the future or at least having an employee with sufficient expertise to predict the potential outcome, and additionally with enough clout among management to get that opinion acted upon. I'd estimate they could apply roughly only 20 TSBs at $75 each for every new $1500 gearbox, say 40 if labour is included. I think the vast majority of gearboxes would survive the mechanical warranty period and as such it's a tough call when cost is the only consideration.

    Good to hear. Looking forward to the outcome. I'm not expecting a reply from my importer too soon; I'm sure they'll pass my email through a few relevant employees here and S.K. before dismissing me. I can see it now, "just say 'thanks' and send him a coupon for a free oil change."

    Regarding improved smoothness, the one scenario that might explain this is that small particles in oil can cause cavitation when under high pressure. The pinion gear at motor speed could be doing 5,000+ RPM resulting in a fairly high tooth engagement rate. Particles can cause vacuum bubbles which collapse violently and slowly erode gear faces. I've had direct experience with this when investigating journal bearing failures on a large dynamometer undergoing factory testing. It turned out the particles came from the assembly spray lube the fitters were using.

    Oil being too thick for the tooth engagement rate could also cause a whining noise - generally what I believe is reason behind the cold-start noise in winter reported by one of our Canadian members.

    Another thought that crossed my mind is the colour difference of the oil we've seen at 4,000 (OzKona) vs 19,000 km (mine.) Mine was not silver, just jet black. Most of the particles break off in the first few kms. The rate that particles are ground down to dust I think would be fairly consistent over kms driven. So, my "break-in" particles have had many thousands of kms to be ground down (with few new ones generated) while OzKona's have not. Hope that makes sense.
     
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  18. Yes, I fear the same response from Hyundai Aus, in which case I'll annoy the dealer's service manager.

    Crikey, there's more science in lubrication than one would have thought. Tiny particles causing cavitation which in turn causes wear... Bits of metal themselves, obvious, but bubbles???

    The whining sound in cold climate starts - I wonder if Hyundai is using its 75W/85W in the factory and if so, could that be a contributing factor? (Post 22 here.) Or if an oil change has been done (admittedly unlikely given the service interval) and the wrong oil put in.
     
  19. Yes, the science of tribology. I could fill a small book with my experiences.

    The oil spec is 70 weight which is like ATF in viscosity. In fact the Leaf and I think Tesla use that. It has to be thin because of the high tooth meshing frequency, but thick because of the diff’s ring and spider gears. It’s a compromise and that leads to “corner cases” such as the whining when very cold. In our climate a slightly thicker oil would be ok and I’m fine with a 75 or even 80. One gearbox I dealt with at work had a pinion speed of 25,500 RPM, wish I could remember what oil it used.
    I found an engineering article that indicates that the full torque at zero RPM (of EVs) can cause high gear wear and that could be why we’re seeing so much metal, another corner case.
    I’ll admit there is more debris than I would have expected, a bit of a worry. Best to get just slightly rolling before punching it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2021
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  20. Should have tried with the magnetic plug before it was installed but didn't think of it the time. I still have nearly a litre of the fluid. I'll try to find a magnet and report back. I would think it's all ferrous.
     
  21. We're both pretty conservative drivers, wife more so than me ;) but even then I don't give it a hard time at all. A couple of show-off standing starts in sport mode, while the rest of its life has been spent in eco.
     
  22. First, I placed a 1cm cube magnet on the lid and inverted the bottle for several hours, first photo. I don't know if those three "bits" on the left are metal, bubbles, or something non-magnetic.

    Then I left this spherical magnet inside the bottle for a few hours. It was just metallic dust on it, no hard particles.

    It's worth noting that very tiny particles will not be attracted to the magnet unless they're very, very close. In that sense, what you're seeing here can be assumed to be roughly representative of what is evenly spread throughout the oil.

    I still have the oil and still have the magnets. Might try this again.

    IMG_1561.jpeg IMG_1569.jpeg
     
  23. I tried gently stirring the oil with a strong magnet for 15 minutes and got nothing, presumably because the particles are so fine. Or non-ferrous, which given what's in the gearbox, I'm sure they are not. I think the oil would have to be circulating past the magnet for hours to get a result. If the magnet was just hanging in stationery fluid I think the particles are so fine they wouldn't be drawn through the fluid to collect on the magnet.

    I suspect the magnet is useful only on larger particles. Capturing them early in the wear cycle would prevent this mess.
     

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