Best PHEV in America: Alex on Autos

Discussion in 'Clarity' started by Lowell_Greenberg, Sep 7, 2019.

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  1. 2002

    2002 Well-Known Member

    I had seriously thought about replacing my Prius with the plug-in model that came out in 2012 but it was expensive and only went about fifteen miles on EV if you were lucky. When the Prius Prime came out I was very interested in it, until I saw one at the Detroit auto show in January 2017 and did not like the interior at all. And the raised cargo floor because of the battery was even worse in person than I thought. The lack of Android Auto was pretty much the deal breaker.

    At the 2017 Detroit show they also were debuting the Ioniq plug-in. I found the interior dimensions of the Ioniq to be nearly identical to the Prius and much less objectionable. They also had a Sonata plug-in which was really comfortable and had a lot of nice features so I started looking at those as well as the companion Kia Optima plug in. But very expensive and not very much electric range. And no trunk pass through at all, just an impenetrable mound of battery back there between the trunk and rear seat.

    In the fall of 2017 and into 2018 Toyota started having massive incentives on Prius Prime on the east coast, like $5,000 at one point, and you didn't have to be a resident to qualify. Combined with additional dealer discounts and $4,500 federal tax break, it was really a bargain price for a quality built plug-in hybrid, and in spite of the things I didn't like about it, for that price I wondered if I was being too picky.

    I was interested in Clarity but it had just come out and wasn't around and seemed out of my price range especially for touring. Then I saw one at the Atlanta Auto show in March 2018 and really liked it when I sat in it. And feature wise it had pretty much everything I ever wanted. And great EV range. But pricey.

    Finally a year later in April of this year there were suddenly massive discounts of 2018's in Georgia and a few surrounding states and I got a brand new 2018 touring for $7,500 off MSRP and then will be getting the $7,500 federal credit. Not bad for the middle of flyover country. I didn't test drive all of the other PHEV's but having researched heavily, Clarity seems by far the best overall. Volt will stay in EV mode if you mash the pedal, which is the only advantage I saw, the price difference at least for me was huge between the Clarity and Volt, and to me having a comfortable roomy car with all the great features is a huge upgrade from my years driving a Prius. And the EV range has exceeded what I expected, to the point that I have to manage charging just to avoid charging to full when I don't need to.
     
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  3. Phil_Meyers

    Phil_Meyers Active Member

    Why would you worry about charging to full and only charge to 80%?
    Honda has a nice top and bottom buffer anyway.
     
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  4. I briefly considered the Ioniq to recommend to my daughter but 1) They weren't allocating them outside California and 2) The only source of heat is running the ICE.
     
  5. The $35K legitimate price for a Tesla Model 3 is the starting point for the Clarity. Now subtract the $4K Honda incentive, state rebates of $1500-5000 and a $7500 federal tax credit (not rebate) and we’re in the low $20K’s.

    Beside the fact that it is a comparison of a BEV with a PHEV, remember, “Best PHEV” is the topic of the thread, we’re not even close on price.

    I’m sorry for bringing up the BEV again. Maybe we can all go home now and think about what just happened.
     
  6. MPower

    MPower Well-Known Member

    If you live on a hill and have to stop when you enter the main road, with a fully charged battery, the ICE will go on. I used to plug in every night, but now I only plugin if I don't have enough range left to cover my travel on the following day. I decided that when I am just dubbing around town, I don't need a full SOC and I hate it when the ICE comes on when I don't need it. I didn't notice it last winter, but I am not sure whether that was because I was a noob or the cold kept the battery from charging to the max and the ICE didn't actually start (it's really quiet).
     
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  8. MPower

    MPower Well-Known Member

    I considered the Ioniq plugin as well, but to get the safety features you needed to buy the top trim line with a moon roof which i did not want. The local dealer said they had found one that they could get if I was interested. We dickered a bit, but they would not budge very much and the upshot was that the Clarity, a much grander car with a longer EV range, turned out to be cheaper because of the much larger tax credit. I had to explain that to the saleswoman a zillion times and I don't think she understood in the end.

    I had the same trouble at the Honda dealership where the salesman did not understand why I would want a $34,000 2018 car instead of the new 2019 Insight hybrid which only cost $28,000. Subtract $7,500 and the Clarity is cheaper, right? I'm not good with numbers, but even I could do that simple calculation (with the help of a calculator, of course).
     
  9. Ken7

    Ken7 Active Member

    Yes, but two very different cars. I would argue you should be comparing the Touring edition with even the base Model 3. That brings up your price. The fact that two vehicles are ‘base models’ doesn’t mean they’re equipped the same.

    In terms of performance, there’s no comparison and many buyers will pay extra for that with the Model 3. It’s extremely unusual to get this kind of performance in anything approaching $35,000.

    The Clarity is an entirely different vehicle aimed at a different buyer. I enjoy both our Clarity and Model S, but these are exceedingly different cars. Choices are good. :)
     
  10. 2002

    2002 Well-Known Member

    I don't worry about it, I just don't do it when it's not necessary. There is a lot of knowledge and experience about EV batteries gained over many years although it is very difficult to predict for a particular car and battery what effect different levels of charging has. 80% is sort of a standard cut-off that is probably quite conservative in many cases. Also someone posted their individual cell voltage readings one time at 80% and they were right at the voltage that is considered best to stay below if possible. In spite of all that I often charge to 100% when I think I may need it, and recklessly charge to 90% even when I know I don't :)

    My point was that it's a nice problem to have, having all this extra capacity that I don't always need.
     
  11. Agreed, 2 different cars.

    For the record, our Touring model will end up having a net cost below $23K after factoring in all the incentives.
     
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  13. Teslawannabe

    Teslawannabe Active Member

    Going for the long haul with the Clarity. Alex is spot on. Best PHEV at this time for a great price.
    Sent from my SM-N960U using Inside EVs mobile app
     
  14. Agzand

    Agzand Active Member

    I believe we are currently experiencing a period of the lowest cost of driving for an EV. The prices could fluctuate for a few more years, but they will start going up again, as various government incentives will be reduced and phased out.
     
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  15. Lowell_Greenberg

    Lowell_Greenberg Active Member

    My comments on the Alex on Autos Review:

    I like the Clarity's form follows function approach. I like its overall styling. Everything in this review is spot on. The only real question is Honda's commitment to the Clarity line. Long term reliability is TBD.

    To be honest, the Clarity is a fairly unique value proposition. Assuming the bulk of your miles are EV (mine are)- then you functionally have an EV for the first 40-70 miles of your commute/drive, with a possible electric/gas range of 350 miles or more for longer and/or unexpected trips; fairly fast EV charging; ride and comfort attributes of a higher end mid-size sedan; good visibility; solid safety features; surprising acceleration; low maintenance and cost of ownership and an overall starting cost that after full government incentives, is less than a mid to upper spec Toyota Corolla. The powertrain is brilliant. I effectively drive about 12K per year and have gasoline costs of about $36 per year.

    Minor gripes: The Infotainment center- while supporting Android Auto and Apple Car Play could use an upgrade- and you are not getting the latest Honda Safety Sense features such as rear cross traffic alert and full blind spot monitoring- though you do have lane change assist. Also, the car had some initial software glitches that neither dealers or Honda were proactive enough addressing, particularly during its early release in 2018. This might explain its low CR reliability scores. If you look closely at those scores you will find the car is excellent or very good in all areas- just the overall score is poor- this reflects early trips to the dealer bringing down the reliability scores- however at this point the overall design/operation is extremely reliable.

    Major gripe: It is now only sold in California and Honda has not marketed it well. There is no reason this car can't out sell the Prius Prime.

    I do think to optimize overall Li ion battery life the car should be treated as a typical EV- and I believe fully draining the battery and relying solely on the 1.5 liter Atkinson engine- especially for fast/steep hill driving is probably not optimal- however the car gives you enough manual driving modes to avoid this issue.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2019
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  16. Walt R

    Walt R Active Member

    Looking at his other reviews, he also said the Pacifica Plugin Hybrid was the best option for a minivan regardless of powertrain - mostly because of the better fuel economy.
     
  17. Note that Alex was at an event at Toyota USA, and has noted that they got some info on the as-yet unlaunched RAV4 PHEV. I wonder if the Clarity will still be #1 next year.
     
  18. insightman

    insightman Well-Known Member Subscriber

    Even if the RAV4 PHEV is a California-only car with no advertising support (sound familiar?), the only thing that could stop it from becoming the #1 PHEV in this crossover-happy country is Toyota's inability to make enough of them.
     
  19. In this context, Alex is opining on the features of the car not on its sales. It certainly conceivable that Toyota will put in only an only slightly larger battery than they have in the regular hybrid and give it 15 or 20 miles and it won't be a particularly notable phev except for the all-wheel drive. It's also possible that they put it in 50 mi battery in which case it'll kill the clarity
     
  20. insightman

    insightman Well-Known Member Subscriber

    I think that even with only a 20-mile range a RAV4 PHEV will still kill the Clarity because it's a crossover and the Clarity is not. I'm personally very grateful the Clarity is not a crossover even though the Clarity would likely have been very successful as a crossover with 47-mile range.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2019
  21. Mowcowbell

    Mowcowbell Well-Known Member

    This thread should be retitled "Best PHEV you can't buy!"
     
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  22. vvk

    vvk New Member

    Ken7,

    I have a Model S. Currently looking to replace our other cars with something new. Looking at Model 3 and Honda Clarity. I wonder if I could ask you about your opinion of the Clarity now that you have owned it for a while. I specifically want to get an EV because I drive a lot and don't like to go to the gas station. I also prefer strong engine braking, having driven manual transmission cars all my life. Tesla Model S is outstanding and I would get another one or a Model 3. However, I would very much like something MUCH more comfortable. I feel that, even with pneumatic suspension my Model S has, it is WAY too firm riding. I really want something with soft and well controlled ride. I drive my kids around all day long and I often work in the car, so being able to run climate control without turning on the engine is very attractive. I can charge at multiple points on my daily drives. I can sit in the car for hours while it is charging, working and running the HVAC if needed.

    I am a little concerned about Clarity reliability. I feel that based on what I have read on forums the Clarity is not only relatively problematic but is also ignored by Honda, so none of the chronic issues are getting fixed. I have been extremely happy with Tesla service, so what seems like terrible Honda service seems like a big concern.

    What is your impression of the Clarity compared to your Tesla? Can you recommend it to me vs another Tesla?

    Thanks!
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2019
  23. Groves Cooke

    Groves Cooke Active Member

    I think you will find that most people on this forum really like the car. I have not driven a Tesla S or 3, so I cannot compare rides, but will characterize the ride of the Clarity as soft. The ride is smooth and quiet. The Clarity is not nearly as fast as either Tesla. Regenerative braking is not as strong as either Tesla. I have the Touring version and the seat is very comfortable to me. My car has been very reliable and the service I have received at my dealer has been good. I did have to have a wheel bearing replaced. And I did have a small curb incident that required a new bumper cover. I have owned the car for more than one year (18.000 miles). I would buy another if it was stolen or totaled. I would be happy to give you a test ride in my car but I doubt that is practical.
     

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